PDA

View Full Version : Icon ... finally got to touch one


Chris Lambrechts
05-12-2004, 03:39 AM
I went to AES Berlin 2004 over the weekend and of course one of the things I wanted to check out was digidesign’s new ICON system. The integrated console system, featuring the new controller, D-control. My main interest at first went out to this new controller of course. I mean, after all, that’s what we (or at least I) had been waiting for. I followed 3 demo’s, 2 public ones (music and post) and one private one.

First of all, what immediately struck me during the first demo is that the term ‘protools’ system was not used one single time throughout the demo’s. Why ? I mean, you have a controller and a protools system and put them together and then you have an Icon system right ? Well yes …. And no. Yes because essentially a protools system is in there and no, because it is much much more then a protools system. Calling it a protools system would kinda be like calling a Ferrari a car. I mean it is a car but everybody calls it a Ferrari.
I think it’s going to take a while before people actually realize this though. The term ‘protools’ system is burned into peoples minds. Whenever someone mentions the word DAW, protools is the first thing that comes to peoples minds. Take a look at discussions online, whether here or on other forums, mention the word daw and it will be a matter of seconds (or words) before ‘protools’ pops up. So I really think it will be hard to put that out of peoples minds. But I’m pretty sure that whoever invests in an Icon system will call it an Icon and insist to some extend that it is called an Icon. I mean, I wouldn’t call my Ferrari a car either.

So, you want an Icon system, you determine how many I/O’s you want, whether you want mic pre’s and how many of those, sync I/O, midi I/O and how power full you want your Icon system to be by adding DSP cards to it and then last but not least, how big a controller (number of dedicated channels) you want to control all of that horsepower and I/O. And then of course inevitably we come to the D-control ….. the D-control. It’s actually kinda funny how little people use the word D-control. The digi people of course, but they’re trained to do so. Over the weekend I’ve spoken to so many people and it’s actually noticeable that almost all of them mention Icon when actually what they are talking about is the D-control.

The D-control is the control surface for the Icon system. Expandable to 80 channels blah blah etc etc … we all read the introduction pages on digi’s website and if you didn’t yet, I think you should before reading on. The D-control ….. yes indeed, the super mouse that goes with the Icon. The super mouse that controls the soft and has no sound. The 60k (rumored street value) super mouse. The empty box with faders super mouse and many other cynical things I’ve heard since it was first announced. Well, one things for sure, I thought I had a pretty good idea of what control surfaces can do for your daw. I have had a Procontrol since it first came out with an edit pack and I think I know what I’m talking about whenever I get into a discussion about what a controller can do for your workflow and your sound.
One of the big issues with control surfaces is and has been since day one : is it worth the money ? After all it doesn’t change your sound. WRONG. It does, the cheapest peavey midi controller with only volume and pan controls on it will change your sound. Because there is simply no way in the world that you will be able to create the same mix with only a mouse or a trackball. Especially when going into automation it will change your sound, if you don’t understand that, then I strongly suggest you go do something else.

So how do you justify 60k for a controller. I mean, it IS a lot of money and by god I wish it were only 5k. But I also wish that I could buy massenburg Eq’s for 120$ a piece, or Avalon mic pre’s for 50$, and I would gladly lay down 48$ ex vat for a massive passive.

But reality is different and here’s at least an attempt to justify the price, if not at least a major part of it :

- It’s versatile. I’ve yet to see something like it. In the private demo, which btw was done by Stan Cotey at the knobs and Gannon Kashiwa looking over his shoulders … they are the guys who created this thing, I got to take a closer look at the preferences panel. The preference panel alone and the possibilities to customize the D-control are virtually endless. Don’t like the way something behaves …. Simply change it to taste. Faders, knobs, buttons, displays, they can all be customized to react to your taste. The knobs do not only have fixed and velocity sensitive settings for example … you can customize the reaction of how much velocity you want. Things that might seem over the top like change the order it will display the sends over the channel strips for example … silly ? not if you think about it : you want send a at the bottom (closest to you)? Fine …. Put it there. In short, don’t like the way something behaves or is displayed ? change it to fit your taste.

- The monitor section : Stan got to the monitor section at the end of the demo, when time was already up so he had to skip through it very fast and that didn’t do it justice because the monitor section alone is worth a major part of the price. There’s an external box called X-mon which holds the actual hardware for the monitor section. And there’s controlling end on the D-control. I think it is midi controlled ‘cause I saw a midi led on the X-mon box but I forgot to ask to be honest. Anyhow, 2x 7.1 inputs (main and surround) 4x stereo input, 4x stereo Cue input …. 3 CR outputs of which 2x 7.1 and 1 stereo, 4x cue output … probably forgetting some here but anyhow the inputs and outputs are all there …. More would be almost ridiculous but it’s what and how you can control them that’s realy impressive. This is the kind of monitor section that you will only find on very, and I do mean very expensive consoles. And it will do more then what most of those do. Of course you can calibrate the outputs. How else would you be able to get a very accurate (within 0.5 db) display of how loud your speakers realy are playing. If measured properly with proper measuring tools (probably also by people who know what they’re doing) you can set it up so that every speaker in your system will be 100% calibrated to the actual value in db displayed on the D-control. Oh, did I mention the talkback system yet … integrated little speaker in meter bridge, dim function etc etc … the usual stuff you find everywhere but also latched mode / auto mode (which switches on automatically when the system is stopped). What else…. Stuff like the ability to set / fix reference levels when switching between speakers … a dedicated speaker channel select section that lets you solo/mute every channel individually or a combination of. Possibility to trim each channel’s output of course. In short, this is a very impressive monitor section. Very impressive.

- Let’s stay in the center section …. Dedicated eq and dynamics section. These sections are linked to the focus channel mode. It will display whatever is on the focused channel.
First the eq : 5 band + Hpf and Lpf dedicated knobs and buttons for everything one can imagine in an EQ. 3 (Q/freq/gain) rotary encoders (touch sensitive of course) per band, on/off switch per band … In case you’re working with multi channel Eq’s, possibility to switch between the channels for separate editing.
The dynamics / same deal … everything on dedicated switches including meters for gain reduction and i/o … these 2 sections alone will change the sound of your mixes. Every control is right there under you fingertips and can be edited / automated simultaneously as long as you don’t run out of hands. This is how one should edit and eq and dynamics.

- The transport / navigation section : 1 dedicated transport for Protools and a separate one just above it for Machine control. The normal locate switches plus a bunch of dedicated machine control related switches for switching between machines / track arming from channel strips etc etc… and the scrub/shuttle wheel … yes … for us Procontrollers with a dedicated trim switch which will bring you directly to trim/scrub region mode. That one should avoid a long thread from Jules.

- What else does the center section hold. A full size apple / windows keyboard (switch able caps) and a trackball. The trackball is like the size of the big Kensington ones and felt even better then those. The keyboard is apparently custom made for the D-control. I saw Stan banging it with both hands to illustrate the sturdiness of the thing. Keyboard and trackball are switch able for left handed people for example and the trackball can be replaced by a mouse pad. There’s a usb connector inside under the trackball to hook up a mouse or another kind of trackball. Or at least that’s what I understood.
A section with dedicated buttons for the windows in the soft : (edit / mix / transport / beat dedective / plugins / etc … and a realy cool one for me : the workspace browser window with a dedicated button.)
D-control goes also into little details … litlle but important details, especially when trying to justify why it costs 60k for the main unit. The disable keyboard switch for example is one of them. So simple yet so handy and important. You sit there mixing and accidentally hit something on the keyboard you didn’t want to hit. It happens to all of us no ? well … switch it off. An undo button but also a redo button. An all notes off switch for people who work with midi … midi still sucks and will always suck imho but at least I can switch off that hanging note with a dedicated switch. Sure … there’s plenty of keyboard shortcuts that will do the same but I’m mixing for crying out loud and I don’t want to spend even 3 seconds to think about what that shortcut was again and then do some kind of 12 finger option/alt/+/shift/ctrl/whatever combination to get there. Push the button and get on with it thank you. That’s what a controller should be about and that’s what D-control is about.
Enough center section … this post is getting way too long and I could go on for another 3 pages at least just describing every single button on there … I think I made my point … the center section is a big deal and is impressive to say the least . The focus channel strip is on there too but worth a separate section of this post imho.

- The channel strips : faders and knobs and buttons. P&G high quality faders (forgot the exact model number) 100mm etc blah blah etc … they felt good period. Multi coloured leds. Knobs that are custom made for the D-control. Faders and knobs touch sensitive of course. Everything you need is there : the leds / the switches / the dispays. But here’s some of the coold stuff that makes it more special : Flip and flop mode for example. Every knob on the channel strip (there’s 6) can be flipped or flopped. There’s a flip button for every knob and when pressed will transfer whatever is on that row of knobs to the fader. Can be a send level / plugin parameter / whatever is displayed at that point by that specific row of knobs. Flop mode (push ctrl/flip) will work for the top 5 encoder rows and will bring one of those down to the bottom encoder row. Very handy in some situations where you wanna keep the fader for volume control yet at the same time have a parameter (gain control for your compressor for example or a specific send level) close by for adjusting at the same time without having to reach all the way up for it. Flop lets you temporarily put that parameter closer.
There’s leds which will indicate if there’s a dynamic or an eq present on the channel, an insert switch to insert a plugin. And in this case, unlike the Procontrol, which made this feature quite unusable because in most situations, you can immediately decide on the type of plugin (rtas/tdm/stereo-multi mono…) and then go to an appropriate subfolder (eq / dyn / delay …. ) and go through the available plugins in your system for that particular application instead of having to scroll through all of them. There’s also channel strip modes, The knobs can display so much information it would make them quite useless if there wasn’t some way to bring them into a specific type of information mode with dedicated buttons for that. And again … they are all there : dynamics switch brings you directly to the parameters for the dyn plugin on that specific track. If there’s more then one dynamic plugin on that track push again and again to browse through them. Same for the Eq’s. The mic pre switch will let you acces direct control of your mic pre’s on that track. Input / insert / pan / send switches will do similar things. Input monitor mode switch for each channel. Last but definitely not least an number of leds next to each fader that will give you information about automation modes / group status and then what brings this post to its next section : custom faders.

-Custom faders : Custom faders come in banks of 8 (preference determined) and can do a number of things. Create custom arrangements of tracks for example … very convenient in large session where you want to bring together a number of tracks temporarily for mixing. Anyone familiar with the show/hide locator function in protools will appreciate this one big-time. Plugin mode is going to be everyones favourite. The bank of 8 faders including knobs turns into one huge plugin editor with dedicated controls for the parameters. Virus anyone (might wanna add a bank for that one in the prefs) still too many controls …. Plugin map mode … and this is were custom faders for plugins simply rocks. The ability to map any plugin parameter to a fader. The mapping of course is memorized and next time you open that plugin that same mapping of parameters you created is available. Or how about automation of plugin parameters … no more going through the endless list of plugin parameters adding them manually one by one for automation. In automation mode you simply tap the knob with the parameter you want to automate and voila. And what automation is concerned this goes for everything that can be automated on any section of the surface. Also in the dedicated eq/dyn sections … simply tap the knob and the parameter can be automated.

- The focus channel strip : locks down any channel on a dedicated channel strip in the center section and will stay there until you assign another channel to it. Extremely convenient again in large setups, both for mixing and tracking. I can imagine myself sitting behind one with a singer in the booth. I would want that singers record channel on the focus strip at all times. No matter where I bank the other channels to … the singer will always stay there.

Btw, is this post getting too long now ? probably yes, but then again …. It’s impossible to do it shorter then this … there’s just to much. And I haven’t even mentioned everything.
3 different like 40 minute long demo’s, all three covering different things. In the private one I had, Stan was literally flying over the thing rattling away like a machine gun trying to fit as much as possible in the 40 minutes and still the lady had to come in and say … sorry but times up and I walked out there feeling like I had only seen like maybe 10% of it.

This is the internet, these are discussion forums, this is what we come here for … to discuss stuff. Let’s discuss stuff. I tried to give a complete overview of what it can do. Probably a lot more. If I missed something, let’s hear it. Do you like it ? Do you think it sucks ? What’s wrong with it ? What do other’s have what this one doesn’t have ? Would you buy one ? Discuss ……….

trakbytes
05-12-2004, 02:08 PM
Nice long write-up Chris. Looking for a free long-term demo unit?

Seriously though, it's good to get an in-depth first opinion. One question-how's the build quality? Since you've been a Pro Control user from the beginning, you must know that they are not exactly robust. I've been working on several new installations with them over the last couple of years, and without exception, every one looks like it's five years old within three months of heavy use. The paint around the transport buttons is the biggest problem, but also the markers on the buttons themselves wear off very quickly. And the paint around the faders gets sticky in no time (no, it's not from the pizza!) Then there is the armrest paint problem which may have been fixed after many had been replaced.

So, for $60k+, did the D-control look like it's going to hold up in the trenches? What about the mushroom knobs-gimmick or form-follows-function? I have yet to see one in person, but plan to later this month. Thanks for the write-up.

rcm

Chris Lambrechts
05-13-2004, 12:31 AM
Nice long write-up Chris. Looking for a free long-term demo unit?

Seriously though, it's good to get an in-depth first opinion. One question-how's the build quality? Since you've been a Pro Control user from the beginning, you must know that they are not exactly robust. I've been working on several new installations with them over the last couple of years, and without exception, every one looks like it's five years old within three months of heavy use. The paint around the transport buttons is the biggest problem, but also the markers on the buttons themselves wear off very quickly. And the paint around the faders gets sticky in no time (no, it's not from the pizza!) Then there is the armrest paint problem which may have been fixed after many had been replaced.

So, for $60k+, did the D-control look like it's going to hold up in the trenches? What about the mushroom knobs-gimmick or form-follows-function? I have yet to see one in person, but plan to later this month. Thanks for the write-up.

rcm




Yea ... free 80 channel demo unit coming my way including HD7 Accel / 12 192's / 24 mic pres / ... the lot ....

I think the built quiality is quite on top of things. The armrest has this heavy, kinda rough rubber coating on it but I think I remember Stan mentioning that this could be replaced to suit your taste with a leather covering for example. Though I'm sure that wouldn't be done by digi and you'd have to customize it yourself. They gave me the impression they realy covered everything on this one. We'll see ....
The armrest issue with Procontrols was covered quite early after they found out that the first type of coating sucked. The more 'metalish' coating after that is fine ... at least has been for me. The transport buttons and paint ... well ... you're right but then again ... is there anything out there that doesn't show use after a while ? inevitable no matter what I think ?

dmazurek
05-13-2004, 07:38 AM
my 2 1/2 year old DMX-R100, which gets used 5-6 days a week looks brand new aside from the slightest paint wearing around the volume knob.

cheese2
05-14-2004, 03:27 PM
Our 64-fader ProControl has serious wear issues, both cosmetic and functional. I have replaced faders, panners, and mouse buttons about a dozen times now, and still have intermittent units to deal with. So when I went to see D-Control at NAB last month my major angle was "how's this thing gonna hold up to our kind of workload?"

Well from what I was able to see of it, I am not worried at all. Digi has been aware of the wear issue on ProControls since shotly after they were released and not repeating those mistakes seems to have been a top priority in the design of the D-Control. About the only moving part it has in common with the ProControl is the lighted selector switches - the only type of switch I've never had to replace on ours. The parts cost on the new keyboard alone is about $250! Finishes appear to be the baked-on kind, whereas ProControl was clearly a paint finish. Everything has substance and smoothness to it, no flimsy plastic feel anywhere, and man is that thing heavy! ProControl modules can be lifted with one hand but I'll bet that lifting a D-Control fader pack is a two-man job.

About the only thing that seems a little odd is the design of the feet. They're clearly patterned after the Euphonix, but a little more rounded and a little more angled. They look like they should have a pair of long, skinny shoes on.

btw I am informed by my moles that 80 faders is not a hard limit, merely the largest configuration they have tested so far...

Lee Blaske
05-14-2004, 10:09 PM
But I’m pretty sure that whoever invests in an Icon system will call it an Icon and insist to some extend that it is called an Icon. I mean, I wouldn’t call my Ferrari a car either.




That could create some unwanted confusion, couldn't it? I imagine that a lot of studios equipping rooms with Icons are hoping to attract mix work on ProTools sessions started elsewhere. If there's obfuscation as to what exactly can be mixed on an Icon, that might drive business away. I would also think that you wouldn't want to generate the perception that once a session was touched by an Icon, it would no longer be accessible via a mouse and keyboard PT rig. Digidesign is successful in part because sessions are transportable (within reason) from system to system. I wouldn't think an Icon owner would want potential customers questioning those basic assumptions.

Lee Blaske

trakbytes
05-15-2004, 10:42 AM
About the only thing that seems a little odd is the design of the feet. They're clearly patterned after the Euphonix, but a little more rounded and a little more angled. They look like they should have a pair of long, skinny shoes on.




My moles tell me Jimmy Cho and Manolo Blahnik will be releasing their ICON line this fall...

rcm

grivel
05-17-2004, 05:25 PM
>my 2 1/2 year old DMX-R100, which gets used 5-6 days a week looks brand new aside from the slightest >paint wearing around the volume knob.

Thats because when Sony designs something, they go ALL OUT with the expense of materials. That SIU-100 a perfect example. That thing just looks expensive.

I think many people haven't realized the quality they are getting at that breakthrough price [DMX-R100].

Wolfgang Eller
05-18-2004, 02:21 AM
But for me the bigger problem is its weight, stability and price.
You should try to sit on this "table" (48 or 64 faders) and have a look what it´s doing.
Or you just lean against it and if it´s not screwed to the floor you will move it through the whole studio - it´s not heavy enough.
If I take in account that my SSL MT desk is also just a remote (450 Kg) and I can sit on it (79 Kg) why should I buy a $110000 remote from Digi (48 faders) if the SSL (without the DSP) comes very close and I have a very good armrest and even after 1.5 years it still looks like the very first day.
That´s quality and not cheap but price worthy.
But the D-Control is just expensive.
You know the Soundtracs DS-00? No idea if it´s good or not but you will get 32 faders, TOUCHSCREENS (for every 8 faders you get a seperate touchscreen), real in and outputs with mic amps, DSPs and Mixautomation for almost half the price of the D-Control.
What I mean is: only the touchscreen of the soundtracks is worth more than a Digi 16 fader add on.
Just think about it and then tell me - it´s worth the price.
Is it?

Chris Lambrechts
05-18-2004, 09:19 AM
.... why should I buy a $110000 remote from Digi (48 faders) if the SSL (without the DSP) comes very close.....





hmmmm ... you haven't seen it in action yet have you ? well ... I apologise if you have but I realy can't believe you have . I don't think you would compare it to the ssl if you had. I presume you are talking 'bout controller functions right ? Anyhow ... if you haven't seen it in a full demo, please do and come back after that and compare it to the SSL.

grivel
05-18-2004, 10:20 AM
>You know the Soundtracs DS-00? No idea if it´s good or not but you will get 32 faders, TOUCHSCREENS >(for every 8 faders you get a seperate touchscreen), real in and outputs with mic amps, DSPs and >Mixautomation for almost half the price of the D-Control.
>What I mean is: only the touchscreen of the soundtracks is worth more than a Digi 16 fader add on.

Yes I've seen that console. I've fooled with it in real life and that thing is BLOODY solid. You should also check out this new Harrison board. ST2 I think. It's probably WAY more money, but nonetheless, a new product which is good for the pro audio industry.

AMS-Neve has some great advancements coming out too.

I personally would spend the money on a SONY DMXR100, than the ICON. Investing in the ICON is not a sound long term investment.

Wolfgang Eller
05-18-2004, 10:47 AM
Chris I´m talking about a SSL MT desk and not the new wannabe SSL desk.
I just say that the pure remote desk from SSL has almost the same price as the Digi remote. And then we can talk about quality, robustness and reliability.

But as a Digi dealer you have to say that.

The Eggman
05-18-2004, 05:56 PM
Chris I´m talking about a SSL MT desk and not the new wannabe SSL desk.
I just say that the pure remote desk from SSL has almost the same price as the Digi remote. And then we can talk about quality, robustness and reliability.

But as a Digi dealer you have to say that.



Wolfgang,

I am not a Digi dealer, but a Digi user. I have been very impressed each time that I have seen the D-Control. To be honest, I didn't try sitting on it, but I don't really judge audio consoles or control surfaces by whether they will support my ass. I judge them on whether they're going to fatten my wallet and/or improve my methods of working and/or serve the needs of my clients. In all cases, I think the D-Control succeeds, whereas the MT does not. I'm sad for anyone stuck with an MT at this point, because they are already outdated. At least the D-Control should last through many upgrades of ProTools software and Digi interfaces.

ME? I made a downpayment on my D-Control and can't wait for it to arrive!

Wolfgang Eller
05-19-2004, 12:36 AM
It´s your opinion that the MT is outdated. Maybe, maybe not.
But that´s not the question.
The point is: Look at all the (digital) remote desks, is it Neve, SSL, Sony, Euphonix, Soundtracks, Lawo, Cantus and so on, they are all perfectly handcrafted and engineered and none of them is a plastic table like the D-Control.
And I´m not worried about your ass cause you know it won´t last but your client will try it cause he knows, with every other desk, he can do that.

Chris Lambrechts
05-19-2004, 12:44 AM
... But as a Digi dealer you have to say that.



actually no I don't have to say that. Strange how people keep reffering to that whenever I say something positive about digidesign. Don't see those remarks when I complain about them. Anyhow ... I know you were referring to the MT desk.Great, you can sit on it. The durability has yet to be proven, so can't comment on that just yet. Don't worry, if it's durability sucks, I'll be the first in line here to complain about it. Do a search on the Procontrol section and you'll see I've done my share of complaining about that one ... blah blah ... your point was robustness / durability / fact you can sit on it. My point was to compare functionality, remote possibilities. You did refer to that in your first post and I merely mentioned that there was no comparrison, and I stand by that point.

The Eggman
05-19-2004, 03:06 PM
It´s your opinion that the MT is outdated. Maybe, maybe not.
But that´s not the question.
The point is: Look at all the (digital) remote desks, is it Neve, SSL, Sony, Euphonix, Soundtracks, Lawo, Cantus and so on, they are all perfectly handcrafted and engineered and none of them is a plastic table like the D-Control.
And I´m not worried about your ass cause you know it won´t last but your client will try it cause he knows, with every other desk, he can do that.



Wolfgang,

I'll be honest and say that I did not check to make sure that a person could sit on the D-Control without a problem. Perhaps you are right. I'll let you know when the surface shows up! However, I will say that the overall build quality strikes me as being excellent, and I spent quite a bit of time with the surface at AES. I am used to working on SSL's and Neve's every day, so I am well aware of their excellent build quality. I think the D-Control will be a success. I'm very excited about getting mine!

RKrizman
06-11-2004, 04:24 PM
Since the issue came up, I have to say I sat in on a demo and at one point the Digi rep stood up and leaned on the front center of the console as he reached to one of the back knobs. It sagged noticeably in the middle. Whatever you do, do not try sitting on it.

I love the wood and steel build quality of my little Trident 24. For the money they should have put some of that into the Icon.

-R

grivel
06-11-2004, 09:39 PM
>For the money they should have put some of that into the Icon

They can't because they have to watch their bottom line. Digi is the essence of a large corporation in business to make profit...that's why all their gear looks like lil tykes. Just look at the HD systems, el cheapo.

Bob Olhsson
06-22-2004, 06:53 AM
...at one point the Digi rep stood up and leaned on the front center of the console as he reached to one of the back knobs. It sagged noticeably in the middle. Whatever you do, do not try sitting on it.

Ouch!

Suggests the work of people who've never worked in a real studio on real consoles. I suppose this shouldn't be surprising since historically lots of console manufacturers have never really understood how a console is used but still at the price...

Wolfgang Eller
06-22-2004, 08:51 AM
Whatever you do, do not try sitting on it.



What I said: a plastic table.

1k tone
06-23-2004, 07:40 AM
Whatever you do, do not try sitting on it.



What I said: a plastic table.



Wolfgang et al,

I've seen 2 different 32 fader installations now, and neither of them sagged when I put my skinny ass on them. From what I've seen and felt, these consoles are built solidly.

Also, you would never slide this console across the studio floor by leaning on it. The 32 fader installs must weigh 350lbs plus.

cmaynes
07-28-2004, 09:12 AM
>For the money they should have put some of that into the Icon

They can't because they have to watch their bottom line. Digi is the essence of a large corporation in business to make profit...that's why all their gear looks like lil tykes. Just look at the HD systems, el cheapo.



Grivel-

What do you consider to be so cheap about HD systems (build - wise)

As well, It seems you have little good to say about Digi's gear, And few comments that would come from an end-user. Might there be another motivation from your presence here?

just curious.


charles maynes