AV Upgrade?

[Ed Campbell]

Dear Digi,

While I do promos for most of the networks and for cable, most of my work is long form documentary for Discovery, PBS, A&E, and specials for HBO. All of these are done using the AudioVision as my editing platform. I have a good knowledge of the capabilities of ProTools.

I won't talk about what others have defined as important, such as universe bar, multiple undo, auto save, clip based eq and volume. Their comments represent my feelings exactly.

So, what about time compression/expansion. I hope you are planning a serious improvement over the lame ones in ProTools. AV has one, and it is as near perfect as I have ever heard.

How about clip slip? In AV, when you want to keep the edit in and out points, but want to move the audio within the edit, clip slip is the ticket. Suppose you've just batch digitized an EDL with an hours worth of material, and find that the source was off by three frames. And suppose there are 300 edits using this material. In AV clip slip, you highlight the tool, highlight all the clips, type in the offset, and presto. What do you do in ProTools, guys?

On the "A V Upgrade Info" sheet, you mark PT as being able to import an OMF. Sure, that's true in one sense. But in the process it loses all the clip markers, such as tape source and original timecode source information. What if you have to replace media? How can you batch digitize? The answer is, you can't.

Also, when you import an OMF to PT, clip volumes turn into automation. Editing with automation on is slow, and if you select a roomtone or ambience from one clip to use in another clip, the automation goes with it.
You would probably say, if you were a PT user, "just turn the automation off." But suppose a client has selected mics between a lav and a boom on a scene with many people in it. Turning off the automation negates
the client's choices. Clients are not happy when you undo the work they may have spent months accomplishing.

It just seems to me that when something ain't broke, don't fix it. You shouldn't call your sheet the "A V Upgrade Info" sheet. Call it the "PT Upgrade Sheet." It is not an upgrade for AV users, not by a long shot. And, AV comes at a premium over PT--I have to buy PT
and then buy AV on top of it. What's the problem? You can sell it for more than PT alone.

I know you have already decided to trash AV in favor of a "new and improved" PTAV. I'm sure the guys at Fairlight are thrilled.

As you probably know, this was posted on 3-25-99 in a previous topic folder, but I got no response. I would appreciate feedback from someone on your end.

Thanks,

Ed Campbell
National Sound
NYC

[Digidesign]

Ed,

Thank you for the feedback. I have forwarded your post on to the people here responsible for AV development.

I apologize that this was picked up in your earlier post. I must have missed it somehow.

Brian Hageman
Manager, Worldwide Electronic Marketing & E-Commerce

[Digidesign]

Also, we have created an e-mail address for Audiovision customers that have questions or comments about this upgrade program. E-mail to this address goes directly to the Product Manager for Audiovision.

AVupgrade@digidesign.com

Brian Hageman
Manager, Worldwide Electronic Marketing & E-Commerce

[Tommytom]

Dear folks,
I along with other frustrated post users know that using Protools for post production is like trying to turn an airplain into a helicopter and fly it verticlly. Anyway I was wondering if I could just purchase or use the audio portion of Audio Vision without the video portion. I use a 3/4 vedio deck and have been forced to use Pro Tools instead of a dedicated post tool like Audio Vision. Thanks!

Tommytom

to the developers,

Just put the media into separate folders for each project, and add audiosuite plugins. Then, just let the big dog of AudioPost sleep. http://www.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

[Joncon]

Ed,

Time compression/expansion - what exactly is it that you like about AV's and dislike about Pro Tools?

Clip slip - It works pretty much the same in Pro Tools right now. Select all regions, an entire track or a single region. Hold the control key and hit the + or - key to nudge by what ever increment you choose (sample, subframe, frame, second, beat, etc.)
Per the Pro Tools keyboard shortcut card this "keeps region start/end and moves underlying audio".

The OMF import capabilities are being overhauled. I can't give you details because I don't have them.

clip based DSP - I don't have an answer for you on that one as of now.


I hear you when you say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". For your needs, that may be very true. If so, continue to use AudioVision, it will still be the perfect tool for you in the future as it is now.

As most often is the case, only the people that are unhappy are the ones that are vocal. Believe it or don't, for every AV user that is unhappy about the AV transition to Pro Tools there are AV users that just can't wait for the new Pro Tools/AV.

That old saying, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" isn't true. It might take a little while to make the change (should you choose to do so) but my suggestion is to give it a try before you knock it.

If you don't like it at that point, go back to AudioVision. That's the beauty of this upgrade (or sidegrade if you prefer to call it that), you can keep the all the hardware necessary to run AudioVision. You can try the upgrade for free, no risk to you and easily go back to AV if you decide to or go back and forth between the two apps.

Digidesign IS listening to what you're asking for and that is probably the biggest reason the Pro Tools/AV change is happening.

Tommytom,

If you are asking if AudioVision will run without the video hardware, the answer is yes. It's not tested and I wouldn't recommend it but it will launch. It will post several error messages as it launches because it can't find the video hardware. How well it will work, I'm not sure.

You would still need Pro Tools III hardware, two 888's (or 888/24's), USD or Microlynx and most importantly the AV dongle and software.
Unfortunately, the only way I know of to get the dongle is to buy the AV core system which is the video hardware, AV software, documentation and dongle.


Fajita,

That's exactly what I mentioned earlier in this reply about Digidesign listening to what AV users want. [Just ad separate media file folders and audiosuite to AV.] We also hear "Just add higher track count" or "just add TDM real time plugins" or "just add 24 bit capability". Pro Tools does now and Pro Tools/AV will have separate media file folders for each project, audiosuite plugins, 32 or 64 track count, TDM realtime plugins, 24 bit sound quality and a whole lot more...

OK, I'm done. Go ahead blast me...

Jon Connolly
Digidesign Product Specialist

That's jon_connolly@digidesign.com if you prefer to take direct shots...

[John Jenkins]

Dear Digi,

I've just finished reading Jon Connolly's snippy reply to Ed Campbell regarding upcoming changes to AudioVision and had to respond.

I'd hate for Jon to assume that because I haven't been "vocal" that I'm happy with Digi's handling of A/V. This "old dog" has been trying to use PT with an open mind and I've found that it can't do the work I need it to do.

Since the marriage between AVID and Digidesign, AudioVision has been treated like a stepchild that Digi would like to kick down the stairs when no one is looking.

My bread and butter work is documentaries with some promos and occasional feature film ADR. 90% of the shows I work on arrive on drives from AVID Media Composers. Because of varying skill levels on the part of the Media Composer editors, the mix session is now as much an edit session.

Typically, "impossible" dialogue edits are saved for the mix because the A/V can do it quickly and accurately with tools PT simply doesn't have. I rarely get through a session without batch-digitizing at least a few clips. Some shows require batch-digitizing all the clips. Without reliable OMF tools, I'm out of business.

I'm having a hard time trusting the company right now. Since ordering two new A/V's a year ago, I've heard a dozen scenarios regarding A/V's future, including rumors of A/V's demise shortly after delivery.

I feel like I've been given the run-around even though I was an A/V alpha tester and work at a place that has 2 A/V's and 35 AVID MediaComposers. How do you treat
smaller customers?

John Jenkins CAS
WGBH Boston

[Joncon]

I'm not sure what you interpretted as snippy...

The point that I did not make clear in the last post is this...

Comparing Pro Tools 4.3.1 (current version) with Pro Tools 5.0 (the upcoming version with AV features) is like comparing apples and oranges.

Pro Tools 5.0 has many new features aimed specifically at Post and AV users that simply don't exist in Pro Tools 4.3.1.

The bottom line, don't judge Pro Tools 5.0 until you try it...

Jon

[Greg Gause]

Jon,
It appears that folks like myself, the ones that are sitting back and watching, might need to chime in. At this point I would like to go on record as "sceptical". I think that most of us relize that if we don't like the new version we can always step back to what we were using before. I'm assuming that means that the AV we have now will not be upgraded again. So with that in mind you are forcing us to jump on the PT boat, stay with a workstation which will become technologicly stagnate or switch platforms. Can you tell us which AV features we'll lose? I've heard about all the stuff we'll gain.
Here in Atlanta you guys lost two huge potential sales to Turner Studios and Crawford Post because "the AV is a dead platform". I hate to see such things because the AV is the best workstation I've worked on in the 10 or so years I've been in audio.
Thanks for your time!

[Joncon]

I appreciate your skepticism and I can't blame you. I just returned from visiting an AV customer who had the same concerns.

Pro Tools, being Digidesign's flagship product (as MediaComposer is to Avid), should give everyone some piece of mind that as long as Digidesign is around, Pro Tools should be as well. This should help solidify the future of Pro Tools as a product.

Pro Tools has become one of the most powerful recording, editing and mixing audio solutions available and has done so by listening to the needs of the musician, engineer, producer.

Digidesign, by announcing, developing and releasing Pro Tools 5.0, is making a bold commitment to the Post production portion of the audio world. In order to make the investment into this arena work, it will require that Digidesign listens to the needs of the Post editor/engineer/producer and make the product these people want/need.

As I see it, Digidesign's goal is not to "satisfy" the Post customer but to make the Post customer say "I MUST have Pro Tools because it can do for me what no other product can".

In my opinion, this will be more difficult of a task for Digidesign due to the fact that there are worthy competitors already in this market, as Greg suggested in his post. This was not as much the case for Digidesign some time ago when Pro Tools was first released.

You are correct, although Pro Tools 5.0 will not have the entire list of AV features that will eventually make it in, we can only succeed by listening to what the post customer has to say about it and acting accordingly. (Here's Tim Claman's home phone number 650/555-****.)

Hopefully, Pro Tools in the music audio market is evidence that Digidesign is capable of that.

There will be no feature additions to AudioVision as we know it today, that's no secret. This does not make AV any less capable. AV is maintained and critical reproducable bugs found are fixed. AudioVision version 4.1v9 and release notes should be available on the Digidesign website in the next day or so.

Digidesign realizes the need, and it may not be with version 5.0 but in subsequent versions, to include the features and tools that will make the transition from AudioVision (as well as any other competing Post audio product) to "Pro Tools/AV" a no brainer.

Thanks,

Jon

[sswatson]

A few thoughts: Avid is resposible for AV phasing out, not Digidesign. Digidesign was always resposible for making Pro Tools the best product it can be and they will continue to do so. When Microsoft put money into Avid, they didn't suddenly ask them to be resposible for Microsoft Word. It always seemed a little odd to me that Avid passed AV on to Digi. I may misunderstand that situation, though. Looking on to the future and not the past:

The upgrade is free. I know that when the boards show up on my desk, I'm going to plug 'em in and find out.

I expect that I will be creativly inspired by some pluggins to do some sound design that wasn't so readily possible in AV. Pluggins will do for film sound what stompboxes and Jimi Hendrix did for guitar - expand the limits and possibilites. On the utilitarian side, Noise Reduction pluggins are a valuable tool. (That can still be turned to creative effect when settings are cranked.)

The open architecture of Pro Tools, through its pluggins, helps ensure that it will not be shelved. Other companies have a vested interest in its survival.

There are work arounds for issues such as not having clip based EQ. There are certain problems in AV with clip based EQ anyhow: like that it doesn't apply if you use the track bounce tool. But there are work-arounds to that as well.

And since AV doesn't support 24-bit, PT5 is going to sound better than your AV can anyway! I know, I know... some things are going to be harder to do. But have any of you spliced mag stock lately?

The situation is to a lesser extent similar to when sound was introduced to film. At first there were setbacks and difficulties to be overcome. But in the end, film gained new creative possibilities from it and became more encompassing and engaging!

Star Wars Episode I seems to be pretty good proof that amazing sound for a film can be created in Pro Tools.

Will all the features that we want be there right off? No... but in time. I must say that differences between Digi software releases are much more notable than Avid.

I'm game for some new creative toys,
Sam Watson

[noisefloor]

"Here in Atlanta you guys lost two huge potential sales to Turner Studios and Crawford Post because "the AV is a dead platform".

So I'm curious...what platform did they end up getting instead?


Mike

What was the upgrade URL again?

I just may have to try it for myself.

[Greg Gause]

The two facilities here in Atlanta went with Fairlights.

[Ed Campbell]

Dear Jon,

It has taken me a while to reply to your response to my post, because I wanted to give informed answers to your questions. In the mean time, I was very happy to see the comments of the many others who have opinions.

First I will respond to the time compression/expansion question you posed. In AV, you make one choice--length, in timecode. I don't really want to select sound quality vs. rhythmic integrity. I don't want to have to mentally translate second increments into frames. What is the min hz about? Remember, we're talking post mixing here. I'm not critical of PT as a music platform.

You were right about clip slip, partially. You can highlight one region and slip the audio. This I knew. You can even highlight two or more adjacent regions and slip them. But I don't think you can select regions that are not adjacent to each other, ie., random regions, and clip slip them all. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I must also respond to the old dog new tricks line. We bought AV last year and I learned it in a week. I had a job which came in on PT last August, and I mixed part of the job on PT. I'm not afraid of new technology--we also have a Fairlight as well. I assume that when you say I can continue to work on AV, you mean Digi will continue to support AV with software compatible to Media Composer. I question this, since we have had numerous problems with a software upgrade for MC without a simultaneous upgrade for AV, leaving us temporarily unable to import OMF from MC. If this happens when both are being supported, what do you think will happen when AV becomes the bastard child?

I was glad to see that you acknowledged the OMF limitations of PT, and the indeterminate implemtation time frame. Until this is solved, I can't see a scenario in which I could use PT/AV effectively as a long form post engineer. I am not writing to be confrontational; I am writing out of concern that the best post box to come down the pike is about to be trashed.

Thanks

Ed Campbell

[This message has been edited by Ed Campbell (edited 06-22-99).]

[Joncon]

Ed,

Thanks for the reply and I appreciated your constructive debate. I'm sure that the questions and comments you have, others have as well. I'll try to address each one.

Pro Tools Time Compression/Expansion... The sound quality verses rhythm slider gives the user a choice on how Pro Tools compresses or expands a file. I agree that in most cases this option is not necessary and I am forwarding a request to engineering to have it default to rhythm as opposed to in the middle of the two.

Let me briefly explain what that slider does, If the slider is cranked hard to the "sound quality" side, Pro Tools analyzes the file being processed and looks for spots in the soundfile where it can add or remove (expand or compress) samples more transparently. For example, it may find a location at a very low amplitude or low audio activity and choose to add or remove samples here where they are less likely to be noticed or missed. This method "preserves" the sections with audible audio and therefore gives you potentially higher quality audio. Remember that Time compression/expansion is simply adding or removing samples to complete it's task and therefore can introduce distortion and/or aliasing. Severe time compressing or expanding will show you this.

The rhythm side is best used when Time compressing a pair of stereo tracks (or more) such as a stereo music bed. When the slider is cranked hard to the rhythm side, Pro Tools will add or remove samples in the same location on each file so that their phase relationship is maintained. If samples were removed in different locations the length of the files would be different at different locations creating very noticable phase problems.

Unfortunately, at it's default settings, this can sometimes occur when time comp/exp pairs of stereo files.

The hertz slider allows you to set a threshold of sorts so that frequencies under whatever range you have selected will not be affected.

This can be useful when compressing a dialogue track for example. The default 80 hz setting can be increased or raised to the point where you believe the lowest voice frequencies begin. Bumping this slider up in this instance can decrease the amount of time it takes to process the file and will potentially give you better audio quality as well.


The Pro Tools Time comp/exp does allow you to look at your selected file in not only timecode but minutes seconds, number of samples, bars and beats and tempo (beats per minute). I'm not sure if it has always been able to do this or not but if you are not seeing these options you may be using a very old version of the Time Comp/exp plugin. I've got version 1.31 here on my system and all of the above mentioned increments are available.

A workaround that will allow you to not have to think about these settings every time you use Time comp/ex would be the ability to save presets within the Time comp/exp plugin.

This would allow you to set the sound/rhythm fader and hertz faders once, save the presest and leave them alone. In most cases, you won't need to tweak them much, if at all.

Choosing a preset is a single mice click operation.

Clip slip - You are correct, Pro Tools 4.3.2 (current version) and previous Pro Tools vesions do NOT allow you to choose discontiguous regions. However, Pro Tools 5.0 will allow you to choose discontiguous regions.


To say that AV is dead as soon as Pro Tools/AV is released is not the case. There are a couple of things that back this up.

1) We realize that atleast the first couple of versions of Pro Tools/AV (5.0, 5.1) may not satisfy the needs of some AV users so keeping AudioVision available for them is a priority.

2) As I understand it we are legally bound to support a product for a certain amount of time after it's End of Life date. As far as I know, AV has not been officially EOL'd.

As far as the MC OMF exporting issues you mention... Yes, there were some dificulties with this process when MC 7.0 was released but the problems were more so on the Media Composer side as opposed to the AV side. Any tweaks that we new were necessary for AV were done in advance of the MC release, i.e. Conversion Tool for video media. Although this utility was replaced shortly after with a more efficient utility, Media Translator.

Since the actual bugs in the OMF transfer process were mainly on the MC side, they were out of our (Digi's) immediate control. But we did do some tweaking on the AV side as well and therefore a new AV release.

It is not always necessary to put out a new release of AV for every new release of MC unless Avid has made significant changes that will affect AV.

We are trying to stay on top of these releases and have done so in the MC 8.0 release example. As a registered AV owner/user you should have gotten or will be getting soon a letter announcing the latest AV version 4.1v9 that addresses exports from MC 8.0.

This should continue (and if I can help it) will become more thorough and timely in the future.

You are correct about OMF and Pro Tools situation. We realize that in order to make Pro Tools/AV a viable solution we must, most definitely, address the OMF situation and we are.

Thanks,
Jon

[noisefloor]

"The Pro Tools Time comp/exp does allow you to look at your selected file in not only timecode but minutes seconds, number of samples, bars and beats and tempo (beats per minute). "

PT does not let you specify length in timecode - you can see TC start and stop, but if you want TC length, you have to either mentally convert tenths to frames or subtract the end from the start time. Digi, PLEASE add this functionality to the next version of PT. Right now, the interface is inconsistent and not particularly flexible.

Mike

[Digi Engineering]

You can specify the length in 5.0
-Mike Rockwell

[Ed Campbell]

Jon,

Thanks for your response. It was thorough and detailed and gives me confidence that you understand my and others concerns.

Ed Campbell

[Digi Engineering]

I'm sorry my original post wasn't more complete I was rushed for time. There are a number of ways do Time Compression/Expansion in PT 5.0.

1) There are two selections in PT 5.0, the Edit Selection and Timeline Selection. You can now make a selection of what you want to compress and make a selection of where you want it to fit.

2) There is a new Time Trimmer Tool in PT 5.0 that works like the current region trimmer except it does TCE. You can drag the edge of a region and it will automatically be TCE's to fit.

3) When using the Time Trimmer Tool in Spot Mode you can click on the end you wish to trim and enter either a new length or start/end (depending on which end you clicked) time. These times can be entered in any of the display modes (Timecode, Feet+Frames, Minutes:Seconds, Samples, Bars|Beats).

4) There is a new region bin drag mode that will TCE the region being dragged to a selection on the timeline.

5) There is the standard TCE plug-in.

I hope that this shows that we do indeed understand what you folks need and are doing our best to get it done.
-Mike Rockwell

[This message has been edited by Digi Engineering (edited 07-06-99).]