Going to see ICON on Dec 1st. [Archive]

Chris Lambrechts

11-12-2004, 10:43 AM

one advice : take your time .... realy take your time ... 1 Hour is NOT enough ... 3 hours is BARELY enough to get an indepth view of all the possibilities imho. I hope it's a personalised one whezre you can sit together with someone who actually knows how to operate one. That is essential too.

Sure ... vegas mode is a killer when you see it for the first time but the more I work on it the more I feel like that mode actually doesn't do it right. I thought it was awesome back on the Procontrol. Now on the D-control I avoid to show it.

I've done a couple of in depth explanations of it. A complete overview ... actually showing everything and discussing things takes me at least 2,5 hours to do it properly. And after that INSIST you can spend at least an hour playing with it yourself.

If the guy explaining it does it right, you should be able to create a session from scratch, say create 64 audio tracks, assign inputs and outputs, sends for cue mixes, Auxes for FX, EQ and dynamics on every track, etc etc ...

ready and set to start tracking your session, setting up a cue mix etc .. without ever touching the trackball or looking at the screen even once. (maybe with a little help .. ) but it is possible. That's when you start to realise that it actually is and can be operated as a CONSOLE.

If you see the guy touching the trackball every 2 seconds ... run and hide .... or kick him between the leggs. Tell him I told you so.

girlsplaypunktoo

11-23-2004, 10:23 PM

Private messages are disabled but I just want to let you know your work is great drew! Espc. DFD. I think you mastered a cd for this MD local band havenwood...am i right?

dmazurek

11-24-2004, 05:26 AM

cool, thanks. Yes I did work with Havenwood.

dmazurek

12-01-2004, 08:52 PM

Went to the demo, 20 minutes in, just after all the 002 questions were answered, the power goes out. sat for an hour talking to the rep, then left. Major bummer. A few thoughts. Fader's are excellent. Buttons and encoders are nice. They should have left off the whole LCD arm thing and made the center section less wide, it could also be 3 inches less deep. We need a D-Control Jr. 12 faders, EQ and Comp section, 2 mushroom pods, one for sends, one for pans/inserts, no monitor section, $15k. The ICON may be worth $60k if it improves your work but it sure doesn't FEEL like $60k.
drew

DJ Insomaniac

12-02-2004, 04:38 AM

Nstrmntls

12-02-2004, 04:44 AM

Drew,

I am sorry to hear about the loss of power during your demo. I went to the demo at 3pm (well it was 3:40pm before I got there - traffic was crazy). I think the ICON is AWESOME!!! This was my first time seeing it and I didn't realize how wide it is. So I have to agree with you on that note. However, I have worked on othe consoles so the depth doesn't bother me much. I must applaud everyone that was involved in bringing the ICON System together. A lot of thought went into it and it shows. I have always been a fan of Digidesign and the ICON shows that they are moving in the right direction. Thanks again to Collin (of Washington Professional System) and Brian (of Digidesign) for such an indepth demo of the unit.

Reggie

dmazurek

12-02-2004, 06:03 AM

A few thoughts. Fader's are excellent. Buttons and encoders are nice. They should have left off the whole LCD arm thing and made the center section less wide, it could also be 3 inches less deep. We need a D-Control Jr. 12 faders, EQ and Comp section, 2 mushroom pods, one for sends, one for pans/inserts, no monitor section, $15k.

Have you looked at the ProControl? It's pretty much what you've just described, but for less $$.

huh?? yes, I'm very famliar with the Pro Control and it's nothing like what I described. the ICON faders, DEDICATED eq and comp section, no monitor section, mushroom touch sensitive knobs etc....... how is that anything like a PC?

Reggie,
glad the power came back on for you guys. I'm sure a lot of people put a lot into the D Control but it seems there's some issues that are obvious to me. I've got tons of time on SSL's (analog and digital), Neve 8078's etc and just because they are too deep (they needed to be after all) doesn't mean you make the ICON the same way. I think they were so concerned that it replace consoles (physically and functionally) that the size was determined by that and not what it really needed to be. I thing the LCD arm should come from the back of the unit and hang over the board for example. oh well, can't please everyone.
drew

RKrizman

12-02-2004, 10:36 AM

I'm sure a lot of people put a lot into the D Control but it seems there's some issues that are obvious to me. I've got tons of time on SSL's (analog and digital), Neve 8078's etc and just because they are too deep (they needed to be after all) doesn't mean you make the ICON the same way. I think they were so concerned that it replace consoles (physically and functionally) that the size was determined by that and not what it really needed to be.

Thank you, those were my impressions as well. Nothing convenient about those top rows of knobs if you have to stand up and lean over to get them. The control surface strike me as a waste of space, by as much as 50%. When you mentioned the Icon Jr. were you fantasizing, or is there really such a thing coming out?

-R

dmazurek

12-02-2004, 11:48 AM

just dreamin. I pushed the Digi rep, as we sat in the dark talking (thought that would get him in the mood to talk!!! ) but he wouldn't budge. We are very happy with our line up right now etc..... What I described is what I'd like to see and what THOUSANDS of people who wouldn't otherwise buy an ICON would buy I believe, are you listening Digi?? It's got to have the good faders and the dedicated eq and comp section though!!!

Nstrmntls

12-02-2004, 01:33 PM

I know what you mean Drew. When I lived in Texas, I was very good friends with the Digi rep Jake Schaefer. He was very careful to not devulge any information about new products. I think there may be some spy satellite that only keeps track of what Digidesign reps tell their customers. As an experiment, try to get a Digi rep to tell you about a new hardware release before it exactly happens and see if you hear from him again.

Reggie

Jeff Hodges

12-03-2004, 06:04 AM

With all due respect, there seems to be a never-ending litany of complaints regarding this feature or that feature on the Icon by a handful of posters here.

As someone who has now been using a 32-fader Icon system for a month now, on a daily basis, 40+ hours a week I can tell you the layout is great, I find no wasted space, and the top row encoders are perfectly usable and necessary for me.

I wouldn't want anything different about it. So there. A real user/owner, that doesn't work for Digi, that has real fly-time, with some real feedback.

As with anything, it takes fly-time to get truly comfortable with the layout, and the same is true for the Icon. It took me a few weeks to start feeling and getting into the flow with it but now, I'd never want to go back to a ProC or C24. There is no comparison really in terms of total-work flow capability. None.

I suppose, if you were on the beta team for any other large format console manufacturer like an SSL 9K or or Neve then you'd probably have gripes or suggestions too. That's fine, because it helps make products better in the end. But you really need experience and to get past the 'learning curve' before you can make those kind of assessments about the Icon.

Chris Lambrechts

12-03-2004, 07:34 AM

ugh.

Jeff Hodges

12-03-2004, 09:51 AM

ugh.

exactly.

dmazurek

12-03-2004, 10:25 AM

well, opinions are like you know what.....

Glad it works for you. Start a thread entitled "I love the ICON". In fact, I think you did on Gearslutz and I responded very favorably. This thread however is about seeing the ICON in person for the first time and various people's thoughts on that, thanks. I'm also hoping Digi listens and builds a D-Control Jr and wanted to let them know I'd buy one!!

Jeff Hodges

12-03-2004, 01:45 PM

dmazurek

12-03-2004, 02:11 PM

Hench has me just about to buy Cubase SX3 just so I can argue with him intelligently!!!!

seriously, you don't think the size of ICON was dictated by the fact that it needed to fill the same space as a "real" desk? If you get the LCD arm off the top of the desk (bad move putting it there IMO) and make it come off the back of the desk and hover over, then the middle section could be condensed and end up being 5-7 inches less wide. just one guys opinion.

Chris Lambrechts

12-03-2004, 03:04 PM

the monitor arm is an option ... you don't 'HAVE' to use it. I've seen at least one picture of a D control that had the monitor on an arm coming from behind the D control. I think it's even on the digi site somewhere.

Also it has nothing ... realy nothing to do at all with the center section being that wide. A closer look at all the buttons on there will tell you that it's realy optimised. I doubt that they made it big just to look like a desk. I'm sitting behind one right now typing this message and realy cannot see where you would gain 5-7 inches anywhere .... unless you would make one with smaller buttons all packed together one next to the other ... which then would probably make people complain about how small the buttons are and how close they are together. It's quite convenient the way it is now imho.

RobMacki

12-03-2004, 08:26 PM

The point that I am getting from this thread is that Icon (as glorious as it is) is out of reach for most working studios.
I was told that most Icons are going into (big budget) new rooms that are being built around Icon. Hey that's great.
It is too big and out of reach for me. Financially I could not justify it.
PC is 5 yrs old, and C24 is three. If there is a new version of them that is Iconish, then I'm willing to wait. An Icon Jr. is just what I am looking for. It has to be just a matter of time before Digi updates PC and C24. The person I was talking to the other day was saying that the R&D from Icon has to be paid for. They have to see the return on the investment for the development. What better way than to introduce a scaled down version using the same parts and technology.
My main point to this post is that I believe and think that Digi believes that there is a huge market for an Icon Jr. I hope it is not to far off.

bigbadhenchman

12-03-2004, 10:48 PM

Hey now, I haven't said anyhting lately.

Jeff Hodges

12-04-2004, 10:48 AM

Hey now, I haven't said anyhting lately.

RKrizman

12-05-2004, 03:15 PM

With all due respect, there seems to be a never-ending litany of complaints regarding this feature or that feature on the Icon by a handful of posters here.

I suppose, if you were on the beta team for any other large format console manufacturer like an SSL 9K or or Neve then you'd probably have gripes or suggestions too. That's fine, because it helps make products better in the end. But you really need experience and to get past the 'learning curve' before you can make those kind of assessments about the Icon.

That's the chicken, but here's the egg. You first need to make some sort of assessment to decide whether you want to go throught the considerable time and expense to get past the learning curve. So far, to a lot of people, the system has too many drawbacks to seem to be worth the effort. In particular people who are composer/engineers, which I'm guessing is a significant percentage of PT users (not including post), the size issue is very important. There are those of us who would like to see a board with all the functionality of D-Control but much smaller in size. And price, for that matter.

What you describe as a "never ending litany of complaints" should perhaps be viewed by Digi as constructive criticism from its target demographic. If there was an Icon with a better ergonomic design I'd buy one in a heartbeat, and I bet I'm not alone.

BTW, this is not a criticism of anyone who is happily using a D-Control. If I had a bigger (than 450 sq feet) control room, was willing to sell my C7, and could play all my keyboard parts on a cellphone I'd consider getting one too. But only if I made enough money that year to need a huge tax break. (In which case, I'd probably be stupid to change anything)

-R

Jeff Hodges

12-05-2004, 07:16 PM

So far, to a lot of people, the system has too many drawbacks to seem to be worth the effort.

To some people, sure. It's not for everyone. Digi's got smart folks, they understand this. However, I don't see any Icon owners dissappointed with the purchase, just folks who wanted something different or less expensive or smaller or to their liking, etc.

If there was an Icon with a better ergonomic design I'd buy one in a heartbeat, and I bet I'm not alone. BTW, this is not a criticism of anyone who is happily using a D-Control. If I had a bigger (than 450 sq feet) control room, was willing to sell my C7, and could play all my keyboard parts on a cellphone I'd consider getting one too. But only if I made enough money that year to need a huge tax break. (In which case, I'd probably be stupid to change anything)

I hear you. Everyone's got a different situation. I think the ergonomic design is pretty darn good, but only because I've come to know where everything is. It's as good as any large console I've used. And I don't mind getting a tad of excercise and/or stretch having to reach the far encoder on the first channel, etc. Lord knows I need it

For us, the money wasn't an issue (way less expensive than a Neve or SSL just for "summing"), we had the perfect space in the room, and it totally accomondates our tracking, mixing, and composition needs for full PT control. But if we were in a less fortunate situation, I could see where something smaller / less expensive / more ergonomically geared toward different work flow etc. could be better

I'm sure digi will accomondate you and those wanting something in between the Icon and the PC. They came out with the Venue, that was pretty unexpected (to me, anyway)

RKrizman

12-06-2004, 01:09 PM

I'm sure digi will accomondate you and those wanting something in between the Icon and the PC. :

I'd rather it be between the Icon and the Control 24. ProControl also seems like wasted real estate to me.

Once again, I think it's the composer/producers who would rather have smaller knobs and closer faders to integrate the cosole into their larger system, which includes a controller music keyboard, some racks of instruments, etc. If you're just mixing or tracking it's easy to stand up and monkey around the console. If you're playing keys as well and needing to look at the sequencer on the screen, for instance, your knees will be suffering real soon with all the up and down, left and right.

I have a small Trident console that I've raised up so I can slide a master keyboard underneath and sit at both at once. It's hard to reach the eq's, though. So guess what doesn't get used?

-R

RobMacki

12-06-2004, 01:56 PM

Here's my hunch and only a hunch.

PC + C24 = EOL

C24 <= ICON Jr =< PC @ $

ICON Jr for music >= C24 in function.

ICON Jr for post >= PC in function.

The other thing I find interesting is Digi has made no comment what so ever. They have made statements several times about "no Accel Core card" But nothing to this issue. Maybe ya can't read too much into that. But nevertheless, it seems like there is a new emphasis on desks lately.
The other thing is that 'ICON' is set up as a product-line with D-Control being the 1st product introduced in that line.Just my thoughts.

RobMacki

12-06-2004, 07:42 PM

Ok, either I have unlocked the mystery of ICON or I have too much time on my hands.

ICON is the 'Integrated Console Environment'
D-Control is the Digidesign Grand Daddy Control surface.
next:

M-Control is ICON jr for Music Production. NAMM?
P-Control is ICON jr for Post Production.

Andrew B75

12-06-2004, 09:53 PM

I think your the only guy in the world that thinks about the ICON this much. Hands down I give you the torch!!!!

Try to relax and wait a bit. Digi will make whatever can turn a profit. If the ICON turns out to be a failure...as it's too soon to know, you probably won't be seeing mini-me ICONs. If anything a new version of the Pro Control.

Maybe labeled as ICON Jr., who knows.