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View Full Version : PT/NT on Dual P2 504 w. U2W Cheetahs - several questions...


DNS Studios
01-12-1999, 08:44 AM
To: Digidesign Tech Support

Dear Sirs,

First of all hats off to you for the support displayed on this board. I have never ever seen ANY company on any message board responding to the customers the way you do here, namely delivering such fast, clearly stated and honest responses (sometimes 3 in a row!). Your effort in trying to answer almost each single post of your customers is truly remarkable.

This is particularly astonishing for somebody like me who works since years as a betatester for a German company (Creamware, makers of the "could be excellent" TripleDAT and CUT Master HDR systems) and who, even as a betatester, gets a response usually only after weeks, if at all, and whose bug lists have been practically ignored (or not addressed to) several times. Their message board is almost completely ignored by their Tech Support guys as well.

A few days ago I got seriously upset, because my TDAT system seriously scrambled up the audio stream for no reason whatsoever in doing something very simple, namely trying to playback a stereo stream over the digital out while recording with the analog in, which is supposed to be a very straightforward operation.

I would like to mention that I have a pretty fine PC system, that could effortlessly record and playback 64 or more 16bit tracks simultaneously. The fact is that TripleDAT is still a 16 bit program and the kernel of it sucks really badly. I have been pushing Creamware for NT support over the last four years (since the program was running under Win 3.11) with no result so far. I decided yesterday that this has gone too far.

You will probably ask then WHY did I work with TripleDAT for so long, and the answer is simple: it is relatively cheap (with all add-ons, 16 physical in/outs, extra plugins and external really good sounding 16/18bit AD/DA converters it costs about 3.800$), and it offers an extremely user friendly interface that allows me to perform up to 180 single cuts in a single day work (high precision, classical music with no timecode). In other words, it is the fastest way to edit audio data I know to date. The problem with TripleDAT is that it is not remotely as reliable as you would expect such a system to be.

On the other hand, I have worked with Pro Tools for quite some time, and I use it at the University "Mozarteum" where I teach (on a G3-300 with Audiomedia III), but there are some features that I really miss in the Mac version, most of all the context sensitive tools and context sensitive pop-up menus. I know that these issues are being slowly addressed, and I believe that the program will be optimized on NT, at least as far as the use of the second mouse button and the scroll wheel are concerned (I hope!).

It was with greatest pleasure that I followed the porting of Pro Tools under NT, which is IMHO, even in its current state, a far better system than the MacOS (true multitasking, far better stability, better memory management ... ). The reason why I do not want to switch completely to Mac is that I cannot get the performance in hi-end graphics and audio from any currently manufactured Apple machine. We all know that the Bytemark results posted on the Apple Website are showing only one side of the G3 performance. I could quote lots of Benchmarks where the Pentium II is up to double as fast as a G3. The 2 processors perform differently in different areas, but are roughly equivalent. The fact is, NT is already now a far better OS than the current MacOS versions, and it supports preempitive multitasking and multiprocessing. Apple doesn't currently manufacture any MP G3 machines. With MacOS X things might change, but until then it is a no-no for me.

OK, I'll try to finish this far too long post :-) .... my main workstation is a Dual Pentium II 504 (overclocked P2-450s, 112 MHz Busspeed, rock stable under NT and Win98) with 512 MB SD-RAM, 45 GB HD space (Ultra 2 Wide Seagate Cheetahs), a Matrox Millennium G200 AGP and 2x 3Dfx VoodooČ for 3D graphics.

What I would like to know is the following:

1.) Will the Pro Tools PCI cards still work reliably when overclocked from 33 to 37.3 MHz, which is the current speed of my PCI bus?
2.) Will the future Plug-Ins take advantage of the huge power reserves offered by a dual P2-504 system (native Plug-Ins)?
3.) Is the full functionality of the HUI already supported under NT?
4.) Do the Cheetahs U2W work fine in LVD mode (Low Voltage Differential) together with PT/NT (it shouldn't be an issue at all, but who knows ...)?
5.) Is full support for NTFS planned, and if so for when ? FAT16 partitions suck, with my 45 GB disk space I would get lost into 23 partitions!!! Besides, FAT16 is not, as opposed to NTFS, able to consistenly auto repare errors in case of a sudden power-off.
6.) Is a more powerful version of the PT24 DSP cards already in developement? For example with the really powerful SHARK DSPs from Analog Devices, that AFAIK should outperform anything in the Motorola class :-) ?

If I will become a PT/NT user, I will be very glad to share my knowledge in other HDR systems to further improve the "usability" of your already excellent system.

Thank you very much in advance, and kindest greetings to all the staff and the members of this board :-)

Michele "Xenomorph" Gaggia
DNS Studios


[This message has been edited by DNS Studios (edited 01-12-99).]

TechSupt
01-13-1999, 09:42 AM
Hi. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I had to research the answers to these "many" questions. Please don't be offended if you read the phrase "not tested, not supported" too many times. It's not that Digi would not like to test these things, it's more of an issue of engineering bandwidth. Also, since the Wonderful world of Windows and Microsoft is fairly new for us, the information and issues that are provided by engineers such as yourself is highly valued. So, thank you very much for bring these issues up to us.

The Onyx chip on the PT|24 card is tolerent to a maximum clock speed of 33.3333333mz. So, 37mz is well out of spec.

Digi plans future support for multipal processor platforms. For now MP platforms are not suppported / not tested. We can run PT|NT
on the IBM Intellistation (M Pro class, a dual processor platform) but the card only utilizes one processor.

The Mackie Hui is fully suppported and compatible with PT|NT.

The LVD mode on the Adaptec U2W is not tested and not officially supported. However, several beta testers were using it without any problems. Comments from Digi engineers indicated they did not see (off hand) where
LVD would be a problem for the system.

NTFS partitions are currently not recommended. They will work but there are a couple things to be aware of. The security overhead on NTFS partitions is considerable and since the "disk scheduler" (Digi low level driver code) is not compatible with NTFS, Pro Tools performance can an will be affected on high track count and heavy edit density sessions. Digi is planning support for FAT 32 when we support NT 5.0. NTFS is being considered, but there are technical issues to work though. FYI, NT supports 4095 MB partitions on FAT 16 volumes. This should reduce your partions to 11 as opposed to 23.

Digidesign cannot discuss specific future product plans in a public forum. We are on the verge of releasing our current generation of PCI bus hardware, called "Mix" hardware, for the NT platform. Each Mix card contains six Onyx based DSP chips running in "dual precision" mode (52 bit calculations). Digi has always sought out and developed the best current technology for the price to offer to our customers. We are continuing to do this as we develop for the WinNT market. When our system technology is changed and updated we have always offered generous hardware upgrade policies in order to keep our customers working with the latest and best systems.

I hope this information has been helpful.

Tom S.

DNS Studios
01-13-1999, 05:15 PM
Hi Tom,

Thank you very much for your response, and of course I will be glad to contribute more in the future if/when I will be also a proud owner of PT/NT :-)

Just a few comments to your post:

"The Onyx chip on the PT|24 card is tolerent to a maximum clock speed of 33.3333333mz. So, 37mz is well out of spec."

I would very surporised if the Onyx (Motorola 56301?) would be "tolerant" up to 33.33 Mhz: this is the standard speed of the PCI bus and the chip, alas I believe the Onyx is "specified" for 33.33. It should have a tolerance of at least, say, +/- 2-5%, or it would risk not to run in a lot of systems with "nominal" clock of 33, but actual speed up to 34 or more MHz (which is not uncommon, for example some mainboards of iWill display this problem).

All the peripherals I use are also specified for 33.33 Mhz PCI and 100 MHz RAM, but they work flawlessly at 37.33/112. I believe that the Onyx, while not supporting officially more than 33.33 might well work at 37.33 MHz :-)

"Digi plans future support for multipal processor platforms. For now MP platforms are not suppported / not tested."

Great! Will there also be native plug-ins taking advantage of MP systems then?

"The Mackie Hui is fully suppported and compatible with PT|NT."

:-)

"Digi is planning support for FAT 32 when we support NT 5.0."

Good.

"NTFS is being considered, but there are technical issues to work though. FYI, NT supports 4095 MB partitions on FAT 16 volumes. This should reduce your partions to 11 as opposed to 23."

AFAIK the FAT16 partitions cannot exceed 2047 MB, no matter which OS is used. A size of 4095 MB would not be FAT16 compatible anymore, and DOS/Win95/98/Linux etc. would not be able to access it. I have NT 4.0 with SP4, and I have definitely not been able to create FAT16 partitions larger than 2047 MB. Is there some trick?

"Each Mix card contains six Onyx based DSP chips running in "dual precision" mode (52 bit calculations)."

I read on a PT/24 Mix review (Keys Magazine, Germany) that the DSPs used are Motorola 56301, and are 24bit chips. Is "Onyx" their (un)official name?

"I hope this information has been helpful."

Sure Is!

Thank you again and have a good day

-Xeno [DNS Studios]

Steve Rosenthal
01-14-1999, 11:31 AM
>>AFAIK the FAT16 partitions cannot exceed 2047 MB, no matter which OS is used. A size of 4095 MB would not be FAT16 compatible anymore, and DOS/Win95/98/Linux etc. would not be able to access it. I have NT 4.0 with SP4, and I have definitely not been able to create FAT16 partitions larger than 2047 MB. Is there some trick?<<

No trick. NT can recognize up to 4095MB partitions using FAT 16. That's pretty much what we're all running here. You must create the partitions using Disk Administrator. If you try to create them using FDISK in DOS, you will be limited to 2047MB. Disk Admin. will warn you that your 4095MB partitions will not be recognizable on certain OSes (DOS being one of them).

--Steve Rosenthal, Digidesign ETS

[This message has been edited by Steve Rosenthal (edited 01-14-99).]

DNS Studios
01-14-1999, 01:25 PM
Hi Steve,

Thank you very much for your reply. I was indeed partitioning under NT using fdisk ... unfortunatley I am used to do so since the old DOS times :- ) I will retry with the Disk Admin.

What about the Onyx running at more than 33.33 Mhz ... did anybody try it out?

By the way, I just found out that the MoBo I am using (ASUS P2B-DS) locks the PCI clock at 33.33 even when running at 112 or higher busclocks. In other words, it seems that even though my memory and CPU are overclocked, the PCI bus isn't and therefore the PT/Mix cards should run just fine. Unfortunately I have no PT/Mix cards to experimant with (yet) :-)

Cheers

-Xeno

TechSupt
01-14-1999, 04:08 PM
I've had some cautious indication from sources that the cards could function at bus speeds higher than 33.33333mz. No one here has grid tested such a configuration though. It's pure speculation as to what if anything might happen. I don't think you could break anything, but if you try it, use test sessions until you feel confident that all software functionality is solid and remember it's not supported. Thanks.

I still don't have any developmental information on how and when dual processor platforms will be utilized and how. Sorry about that.

Tom S.

The Oynx chip (Motorola 56301) is the featured I/O DSP chip on Mix hardware as well as the D|24 card. The TDM DSP (Farm DSP) is different on the two hardware systems. The
classic DSP Farm cards (needed in the D|24 system) use four 56002 processors. The Mix core card uses six of the 56301's and doesn't need separate classic Farm cards although it can utilize them if they're rev 2. I hope that sheds a little light on it. It sounds more confusing than it is.