M-Powered vs. LE

[danika]

Are there any real differences between M-Powered and LE other than the Audio I/O supported? Any changes in the software interface? I realize this is a very general question, but I haven't been able to find a side-by-side comparison anywhere on the DD website. If anyone could point me to a comparison document, it would be much appreciated.

[froyo]

Hello. Go to the main site and you can find it there.

Main Site> Products> Pro Tools LE & M Powered > Software Comparison.

The software will mostly be the same. The M Powered will not include the bundle of plug ins (Reason Adapted, Live Digidesign Edition, etc) and will NOT work with DV Toolkit, DigiTranslator and a Control 24 surface.

[JCBigler]

And don't forget that a 96k sample rate is supported with the cheapest of the M-Powered supported hardware, which it is not for the MBox. That would make the M-Powered software better. Oh, but then you wouldn't have the option of using the Control 24 with your AP2496, like you do with the MBox. :|

[Shan]

And don't forget that a 96k sample rate is supported with the cheapest of the M-Powered supported hardware, which it is not for the MBox. That would make the M-Powered software better. Oh, but then you wouldn't have the option of using the Control 24 with your AP2496, like you do with the MBox. :|



Plus, even with the cheapest m-audio card you get Midi, and 4 ins and outs, GSIF compatibilty. And since it is a PCI card you'll probably get a few extra Davec tracks like the 001 did.

If I was a new buyer, I would be scratchin' my head over that one. The 24/96 is an obvious choice over Mbox in regards to the above.

For some cheap PT editing stations in the studio, I think I will go with a few m-audio 24/96 based systems over the Mbox.

Shane

[danika]

Hello. Go to the main site and you can find it there.

Main Site> Products> Pro Tools LE & M Powered > Software Comparison.

The software will mostly be the same. The M Powered will not include the bundle of plug ins (Reason Adapted, Live Digidesign Edition, etc) and will NOT work with DV Toolkit, DigiTranslator and a Control 24 surface.



Found it. Thanks. Sounds like the base software is pretty much same, just doesn't include the extra goodies.

[mpark9000]

And don't forget that a 96k sample rate is supported with the cheapest of the M-Powered supported hardware, which it is not for the MBox. That would make the M-Powered software better. Oh, but then you wouldn't have the option of using the Control 24 with your AP2496, like you do with the MBox. :|




Well, given a choice between Focusrite preamps, or the negligable over-hyped improvement of 96k sample rates, I think I'd take the Focusrites. That's just as far as "better" goes feature wise. I have an Mbox on my laptop right now, and am getting an 1814, so I'll have a more detailed opinion later.

[nerd513]

dont forget to tack on $350!!!!!!!!!!! for pro tools m powerd software SOLD SEPERATELY

[bigbadhenchman]

Well, given a choice between Focusrite preamps, or the negligable over-hyped improvement of 96k sample rates, I think I'd take the Focusrites.



You really believe tyhat those Focusrite are any better. Dream on. They're focusrites in name only.
We have soem platinum channels at work, and they suck. No headroom, noisy and thin.

[mpark9000]

Well, given a choice between Focusrite preamps, or the negligable over-hyped improvement of 96k sample rates, I think I'd take the Focusrites.



You really believe tyhat those Focusrite are any better. Dream on. They're focusrites in name only.
We have soem platinum channels at work, and they suck. No headroom, noisy and thin.



So you're saying that the A/D converters and mic pre are better in the M-Audio gear? Have you ever owned any M-Audio gear? Well, I have and it's OK, pretty good bang-for-the-buck, but I don't think it holds up to any of the true Digi gear in comparison. An MBox isn't exactly known for it's pristine sound, but the M-Audio stuff comes in at even a little below that.

Luckily the 1814 has ADAT lightpipe to avoid the built in converters.

My point is that if you are going to say it's "better" because of it's ability to use a higher sampling rate, you may have be overlooking the things that make a bigger difference in terms of sound quality. The signal chain is only as good as it's weakest link.

[danika]

Plus, even with the cheapest m-audio card you get Midi, and 4 ins and outs,
Shane



4 ins and outs has always been somewhat of a slight of hand with M-Audio. It's really 2 analog in/out plus 2 S/PDIF in/out.

[Shan]

Plus, even with the cheapest m-audio card you get Midi, and 4 ins and outs,
Shane



4 ins and outs has always been somewhat of a slight of hand with M-Audio. It's really 2 analog in/out plus 2 S/PDIF in/out.



Yep. Thats still 2 more than the Mbox.(Providing one could use all 4 simultaneous) You cant use 2 analog + 2 S/PDIF to give you 4 simultaneous I/O on the Mbox.

And for my purpose, I only need to monitor.

Shane

[Ducky]

Anyone else noticing the M_Powered M-Audio gear has mostly unbalanced ins and/or outs?
That can't be good

[Chris Coleman]

dont forget to tack on $350!!!!!!!!!!! for pro tools m powerd software SOLD SEPERATELY



$249

[BretFarewell]

dont forget to tack on $350!!!!!!!!!!! for pro tools m powerd software SOLD SEPERATELY

yeah, that's rediculous.

[hotbeatz]

Anyone else noticing the M_Powered M-Audio gear has mostly unbalanced ins and/or outs?
That can't be good


Thats what I was thinking. . .also can more than one m-powered interface be used in one box?

[mpark9000]

dont forget to tack on $350!!!!!!!!!!! for pro tools m powerd software SOLD SEPERATELY



$249



Where is it for $249?

Thanks

[The Minsk]

Anyone else noticing the M_Powered M-Audio gear has mostly unbalanced ins and/or outs?
That can't be good




whats the difference between balanced and unbalanced?

[Ducky]

Anyone else noticing the M_Powered M-Audio gear has mostly unbalanced ins and/or outs?
That can't be good




whats the difference between balanced and unbalanced?


Noise
Most Pro interfaces these days are balanced TRS or XLR connections sinse about 1993.
The only real exception is Instrument inputs and Inserts.
Unbalanced connections are recommended to be less that 3 meters long.

[tomdrums]

M-Powered vs.LE

What about upgrades to new versions of pro-tools?

Will M-Powered owners be allowed upgrades to new versions as LE users do when the software is updated?

Or if no upgrades will ever be available (ie. once you've bought your M-Powered that's it for good) is that a concession for choosing the M-Powered route over LE, no upgrades?

Couldn't find anything on the digidesign website about this.

[ptrbas]

I can only guess but normally every software company has an upgrade policy. The question is how much it will cost. Some companies seems to be a bit greedy (Waves.. ) but Digidesign is showing a very reasonable upgrade policy so far on LE, a free upgrade within a limited time after purchasing and after that upgrades for about $ 75.- I would think they do the same with M-Powered.

Greets,
Pieter

[destroy_all_monsters]

Considering that this is brand-spanking-new I wouldn't expect to see anything about this on either site. There isn't even a compatibility list for it on compato. Best bet is to email support and sales at both companies if you're concerned. I think that with street pricing it is still a better deal than the mbox. I expect to see it drop to closer to $250 soon enough. Time will tell if it will work with 1010's (M-P PT) and/or multiple 1814s. That would make it a monster.

Overall, this is good news.

[yannick]

yeah, i have a 24/96 & an mbox & i dont understand why anybody would choose the 2496 & m-powered over the mbox & LE, the 2496 quality sucks! you basically NEED a mixer to run it (which bumps up the cost further) & the zero latency monitoring on the mbox kills the 24/96 off! i hated my 2496 with cubase & cant see it bing any different with Pro tools, i do still use it for midi, but most midi controllers have a USB option now anyway!

[destroy_all_monsters]

I bought an audiophile 192 not long ago and haven't had a chance to set it up yet. I know from having used the m-box that there's latency issues there. I'd like to hear more specifics on what it is you dislike about the 24/96 quality and why it would need a mixer. Granted I have a 192 which is slightly different I'd still find it educational to know the reasons behind your point of view.

One thing to keep in mind though is that at least with PTM-P you can buy in stages and use the hardware now prior to moving to PT. My experiences with the M-box's latency particularly in Midi hasn't been positive not to mention value for money (Mackie's Spike for example is - at least on paper- far better hardware). In time I think PTM-P will help bring the prices down further for PT systems and that's a good thing.

Sue me, I'm optimistic.

[mpark9000]

One thing to keep in mind though is that at least with PTM-P you can buy in stages and use the hardware now prior to moving to PT.



An Mbox has ASIO drivers. You can use it with almost anything, including PTLE.

[destroy_all_monsters]

That may be true (however I've only used the M-box on Mac systems), but it still has latency issues. Last I checked you couldn't buy an M-box w/o PTLE and for what you're getting hardware-wise there's more fully-featured hardware out there. I've never seen an M-Audio product in the last few years that didn't have ASIO drivers either. Perhaps I've missed your point. You can still get an 1814 for a heck of a lot less than an 002R with some great features.

It's a pity that PT won't run on commodity hardware but this is a start. M-audio also doesn't charge an arm and a leg for everything despite being owned by the same corporate masters.

[enb141]

In my opinion if you use another recording software (Cubase, Cakewalk, Logic) well the Pro Tools M-Powered will be your best choice because you can continue using those recording software with Pro Tools,

-M Powered is also a good choise for starters.

[mpark9000]

That may be true (however I've only used the M-box on Mac systems), but it still has latency issues. Last I checked you couldn't buy an M-box w/o PTLE and for what you're getting hardware-wise there's more fully-featured hardware out there. I've never seen an M-Audio product in the last few years that didn't have ASIO drivers either. Perhaps I've missed your point. You can still get an 1814 for a heck of a lot less than an 002R with some great features.

It's a pity that PT won't run on commodity hardware but this is a start. M-audio also doesn't charge an arm and a leg for everything despite being owned by the same corporate masters.



I don't know, maybe I'm the one missing your point. You were saying that an M-Audio interface is better because you can use other software until you move on to ProTools?

But you can use an MBox with other software and NOT use ProTools if you like. The latency issue is no better, and often worse on the M-Audio stuff I have used.

Sounds a little weird to me, why not start off on ProTools and save all the time and effort?

[destroy_all_monsters]

I'm not saying an M-audio unit is better per se. I'm saying that for a lot of people (including me) I think it's a better *deal*. I didn't like the M-box for reasons I've stated and I'd never buy one. I like the Digi 001's I've seen and heard but they're not currently supported. I've heard on boards and elsewhere that the 002's can be a bit buggy. Regardless I think that the prices are too high for the 002/r and the M-box for what you get. So what I'm really talking about is value for money as well as quality.

You can certainly use the M-audio stuff for a great many things other than protools (which as you stated the mbox can as well) and a pci card almost always has better latency than anything on the usb bus (not that any of the manufacturers to my knowledge are even taking advantage of usb 2.0 and that firewire interfaces seem to work better - but I'm getting off track). Your hardware or drivers have to be really screwed up to have worse latency over pci than usb.

Part of what might make our attitudes different is what we use our equipment for. I use MIDI a fair amount so that's more important to me than what might be important for you.

You know I would start off on protools and save the time and effort - if I could afford it or justify what it is I can afford (Feel free to contact me if you're dying to sell your digi 002r or hd for 350-400 ). Now this I can afford and when we have more answers here in the DUC and elsewhere I'll shell out for it.

It would be nice if you could talk more in depth about what you like about your M-box or other digi compared to specific models of M-audio stuff and I think will help a lot of people make up their minds since they'll be better educated on it. Thanks for writing.

[mpark9000]

I'm not saying an M-audio unit is better per se. I'm saying that for a lot of people (including me) I think it's a better *deal*.



It's basically the same deal. $100 for the lowest M-Audio PCI card and $300 for the ProTools M-Powered software. $400 for an M-Powered system or $450 for an MBox (approx numbers). The MBox sounds better than any of the M-Audio gear I have used, so there is an factor that isn't listed on the feature list. I doubt that Avid would dis one of their products for another. Also, the PCI card doesn't have mic preamps or hardware monitoring. For a mere $50 more you get a lot more bang for the buck.



I didn't like the M-box for reasons I've stated and I'd never buy one. I like the Digi 001's I've seen and heard but they're not currently supported. I've heard on boards and elsewhere that the 002's can be a bit buggy. Regardless I think that the prices are too high for the 002/r and the M-box for what you get. So what I'm really talking about is value for money as well as quality.



One word: laptop. PCI cards are out for me.



Part of what might make our attitudes different is what we use our equipment for. I use MIDI a fair amount so that's more important to me than what might be important for you.



The built in M-Audio MIDI function to me is a small consideration. Software instruments and USB controllers are replacing MIDI gear these days.


You know I would start off on protools and save the time and effort - if I could afford it or justify what it is I can afford (Feel free to contact me if you're dying to sell your digi 002r or hd for 350-400 ). Now this I can afford and when we have more answers here in the DUC and elsewhere I'll shell out for it.



Uh oh... If you're comparing the 002R to, I guess the 1814, the actual cost would be $500 for the 1814 + $300 for the software = $800, NOT $350-$400. This is for a flimsy built unit without balanced I/O. 002R = $1300 for a better sounding unit with professional balanced I/O, software, better sound. Depends if you main concern is saving money or getting the best sound within your means.


It would be nice if you could talk more in depth about what you like about your M-box or other digi compared to specific models of M-audio stuff and I think will help a lot of people make up their minds since they'll be better educated on it. Thanks for writing.



Balanced I/O. Better preamps. Better converters. Better build quality (although I don't own an 002). Software included, why would I use any other platform? ASIO for anything else I want to run ie: Reason, Wavelab, etc. Priced only slightly higher than comparible gear when you factor the price of a software package. ProTools is the most compatible platform an the planet, I can take my session to almost any pro studio and be up and running.

That said, I actually have an 1814 on order. I can afford to fool around with it, so I'll have a better comparison shortly. Comparing the MBox to the 1814 is a bit different than comparing it to the basic M-Audio PCI card.

[destroy_all_monsters]

It's basically the same deal. $100 for the lowest M-Audio PCI card and $300 for the ProTools M-Powered software. $400 for an M-Powered system or $450 for an MBox (approx numbers). The MBox sounds better than any of the M-Audio gear I have used, so there is an factor that isn't listed on the feature list. I doubt that Avid would dis one of their products for another. Also, the PCI card doesn't have mic preamps or hardware monitoring. For a mere $50 more you get a lot more bang for the buck.



I can't say I was particularly impressed by the pre's on the Mbox. Certainly how one hears things is a bit individual making any argument on that point moot. Could you tell me what it is you like about the sound of the Mbox better? Highs, mids, bass or? Possibly it could have something to do with the rest of your setups either way unless you're A/B -ing it on the same gear. You're right that the 2496 doesn't have hardware monitoring - but the 192 does (which is what I have). I don't agree with your side of the bang for the buck argument but I have to agree that each of these pieces of hardware have their positives and negatives - or limitations if you will.


One word: laptop. PCI cards are out for me.



That explains a lot right there. USB is a hell of a lot more ubiquitous on PC laptops than FW so that makes sense.


The built in M-Audio MIDI function to me is a small consideration. Software instruments and USB controllers are replacing MIDI gear these days.



That also helps explain your point of view. Midi for me at this point is crucial.


Uh oh... If you're comparing the 002R to, I guess the 1814, the actual cost would be $500 for the 1814 + $300 for the software = $800, NOT $350-$400. This is for a flimsy built unit without balanced I/O. 002R = $1300 for a better sounding unit with professional balanced I/O, software, better sound. Depends if you main concern is saving money or getting the best sound within your means.



This may seem pedantic but it's a bit less than $500 for the 1814. I think you mixed up my point about what I was comparing. I'm not comparing the 1814 to the Mbox, but to the 002/r. The specs I've read on the 1814 indicate balanced I/O. We all know how specs can differ in the real world so that's something I'm waiting to see what others have to say about who have the gear first. I don't know what software you speak of that the 002/r has that PTMP doesn't though. Saving money is part of the equation, but this *is* what I consider to be the best sound within my means. I'm not at all comparing your means to mine however.


It would be nice if you could talk more in depth about what you like about your M-box or other digi compared to specific models of M-audio stuff and I think will help a lot of people make up their minds since they'll be better educated on it. Thanks for writing.




Balanced I/O. Better preamps. Better converters. Better build quality (although I don't own an 002). Software included, why would I use any other platform? ASIO for anything else I want to run ie: Reason, Wavelab, etc. Priced only slightly higher than comparible gear when you factor the price of a software package. ProTools is the most compatible platform an the planet, I can take my session to almost any pro studio and be up and running.



From what I've read there is balanced I/O on the 1814. I'm not qualified to discuss the qualities of the preamps or converters involved because I don't know the guts and chipsets involved nor have I exhaustively A/B'ed the various systems. It's my hope that someone on the DUC will however. I'm confused about why you bring up ASIO when all the M-audio products have it as well - is there a discussion of ASIO implementations elsewhere? Eh, I don't think we're arguing the usefulness of PT - just the hardware and software differences between the two as well as the options involved.


That said, I actually have an 1814 on order. I can afford to fool around with it, so I'll have a better comparison shortly. Comparing the MBox to the 1814 is a bit different than comparing it to the basic M-Audio PCI card.



Yeah I read that in another thread and I'm going to be interested in what conclusions you come up with once you've gotten it along with PTMP. To be sure I'm not comparing the Mbox to the 1814, just the various options and abilities involved. I think a fairer comparison is the 192 to the Mbox since there the price is the same.

[tomdrums]

...And what about the USB iLok key?

Does that mean M-Powered PT can be used without the M-Audio hardware connected to PC, only having the USB key attatched?

Enabling mobile editing at PT, without carrying the interface about?

[lnl]

no...

according to digi m-audio hardware must be connected to open software, just like in PTLE.

[tomdrums]

Shame

[The Minsk]

Anyone else noticing the M_Powered M-Audio gear has mostly unbalanced ins and/or outs?
That can't be good




where u gettin this info? im not seeing it on either maudio or digidesign websites

[drunton]

I got my 1814 the other day and have played with it a bit - including opening it up and looking at the silicon that they use.

First, to clear the air - the 1814 has unbalanced inputs, the outputs are balanced.

Feature wise, there are a lot of issues to look at.

1. People argue about +4 and -10 operation, but the bottom line is that with +4, most equipment ends up going through another cheap opamp. In general, you want to minimize your signal path, so for the "low end" gear we most have, the general concensus is to stick to -10.

2. They same can hold true for balanced, unbalanced - I would rather use a good transformer than count on a cheap opamp to do the conversion to balanced. Bottom line is that the A/D's used are unbalanced in - so it's going to go unbalanced somewhere - use good cables.

Regarding the chips - this thing is bus powered, so you only have +5V to work with (Since the mbox uses the same power - I bet it has the same type of architecture). The opamnps are National LMV722 - 10MHz low noise, generic stuff. The converters are all AKM - the same brand that focusrite uses in the Liquid Channel (on the 1814 Channel 1/2 are the AK5385 (192kHz) the others are AK5381)

The mic pre looks to be made with a typical Mackie configuration - 4560 opamps driving the LMV722. I don't know what the mbox or 002R "focusrite" pre's are - but they always sounded harsh and one dimensional to me compared to just about anything.

I have never opened up my 002R, and won't now - it's going up for sale shortly. But, chances are, with higher voltages available due to the plug-in power supply, it might use higher voltage opamps, which would give higher headroom. But the A/D's can't take any higher signal level, most all of them on the market these days are +5V operation anyway - so if the signal is going to be down at that level anyway, then why add another opamp to boost the signal level in between - again, go for the cleanest signal path.

There are basically 2 A/D companies that are used for general purpose audio - Crystal and AKM, so I don't expect there to be that much difference in the under $1k for 2 channels group. Even my Frontier Tango uses Crystal chips. And by the way, the AD192 converter for the Presonus Eureka looks just like the m-audio stuff - runs on 5V, but has slightly better opamps (TLO series)

The only thing I might consider doing is swapping the opamps for OPA2353's or TLO series stuff, but at 44MHz, the Burr Brown's could end up with some stability problems.

I feel, in the end, it comes down to your front end - get good mics and good pre's. Bottom line, compared to mbox - better latency, more portable, and more inputs. Compared to 002R - possibly some tradeoff in quality that may or may not be noticeable - but a heck of a lot smaller for on the go editing.

[Aln]

For some cheap PT editing stations in the studio, I think I will go with a few m-audio 24/96 based systems over the Mbox.

Shane

you may want to consider the newer Audiophile 24/192 which has unbalanced i/o in a breakout cable and has much improved converters according to a recent SOS review.