tips on miking a guitar cab

[tristanpeel]

hi . Ive been having trouble with miking my guitar cab. i'm basically not getting a good tone. i have a 1970's orange amp i use and i'm putting it through my pro tools le 6.9.2 now when i mic it i use an sm57 off axis about three fingers away from the cone and a rode NTK condenser about 1' away from the other cone. now in pro tools i have to mono tracks for each. i record my take and when i'm done i bring up the two channels. now i know there will be some phase cancellation so i invert the condeser wave form. but i'm still not getting that combined tone. can anyone help me. maybe share some of your tips and ideas. thanks

[djjimmylyons]

Hi,
I question the value of the second mic placement. Usually if I have a second mic and it's a condensor (or a ribbon) I put it further away, so as to get more of an "ambient" tone. I'll put it as far as 10' away (6 or 8' is usually plenty). At that distance phase cancellation goes away as a concern and I get a distinctly different tone.
Of course at that distance, you'd need to open your pre much wider.

My two basic rules for minimizing phase issues are 1) two mics in the same place (no arrival time difference) or 2) the second mic so far away comb filtering diminishes as an issue.

Just guidelines. I don't have a magic bullet. Sometimes I go in closer than the "3 fingers" also.

Good luck. Hope this helps a little.
Jimmy

[djjimmylyons]

Hey, me again. The other thing about phase issues is this:
Phase cancellation only occurs when two signals that are potentially out of phase with each other, travel through the same transducer (speaker). To put that in english, if you pan the two signals hard left, hard right, they won't cancel at all. I learned that reading about Prince (talented lil' bastard). Anyway, I've always thought of the pan pot as the most underappreciated processor.
Ok...

[tristanpeel]

hi jimmy. thanks for the advice. I will def put the condenser a bit back. just a thought though if i may. wat if you were looking to create a stereo track and then layer another stereo take and pan those hard left and right. now if one had phase issues in the stereo track.would just moving the mic around help? there nothing worse than hearing this sm57 sound then you bring up the fader on the condenser and the whole tone just get thinned out.

[PT Lover]

Yes, moving the mic(s) around is always a good idea, even if the mics are totally in phase. You might find a new sweet spot ( ) for your amp. Might seem obvious, but set up one mic at a time. Start with the 57 nice and close to the cabinet, and then add the condenser for more room.

Add-on:
There's times when panning two mics on the same source (recorded at the same time) hard left/right will do it, but more often than not...it just doesn't sound "right". Find a specific place for your guitar in the stereo image, and pan both signals (57 and condenser) there. A specific tone with a distinct placement - that'll very often do the trick.

My 2,- NOK

[tristanpeel]

thanks for the advice. i'll give it a try

tristan

[tristanpeel]

thanks for the advice. i'll give it a try

tristan

[Naagzh]

hi . Ive been having trouble with miking my guitar cab. i'm basically not getting a good tone. i have a 1970's orange amp i use and i'm putting it through my pro tools le 6.9.2 now when i mic it i use an sm57 off axis about three fingers away from the cone and a rode NTK condenser about 1' away from the other cone. now in pro tools i have to mono tracks for each. i record my take and when i'm done i bring up the two channels. now i know there will be some phase cancellation so i invert the condeser wave form. but i'm still not getting that combined tone. can anyone help me. maybe share some of your tips and ideas. thanks



For a long time I used two mics for a guitar cab, but then I did a quick demo and only used an SM57. It worked just fine, and I haven't gone back to the two-mic approach since.

I've realized that some guitar players understand tone processing more than others. Some expect their guitar tone to sound awesome and larger than life, with no processing whatsoever, and get frustrated when they compare it to a guitar track within a song, that has reverb, delay, a smidge of chorus, and an open wah pedal in the chain.

I guess I'm saying I'd rather record a guitarist who knows how to get the sound in his head with a PG48, than someone who has no idea with a U67.

I just find it hard to believe that your microphone (an SM57, arguably the best thing to ever happen to rock n roll) is indeed the source of your woes. I'm only trying to help here: get out some back issues of Guitar Player and do some more research.

[tristanpeel]

you right the sm57 is one of the best mic. perhaps my ear is not as in tune as you mentioned. do you have and advise as to where i can gain so some knowledge. I think sometimes i feel maybe there to much bass that pumping through my amp or not enough or whatever. i guess am trying to find this amazing tone and i'm worried i am going to clash frequencies with other instruments

[Naagzh]

you right the sm57 is one of the best mic. perhaps my ear is not as in tune as you mentioned. do you have and advise as to where i can gain so some knowledge. I think sometimes i feel maybe there to much bass that pumping through my amp or not enough or whatever. i guess am trying to find this amazing tone and i'm worried i am going to clash frequencies with other instruments



Well, I wouldn't worry about how the guitar is going to interact with the other stuff, not yet anyways. But what kind of tone are you after? You say you have an Orange amp (good start), but who do you want to sound like? What do you like about their tones?

But yes, as far as "corrective" processing goes, it's quite common to roll off some bass frequencies (around 90 Hz and below), as well as boosting the highs for more clarity. But this is done within the context of a full mix, and it sounds like you're not there yet.

Do a Google search on Slipperman's Distorted Guitars From Hell thread. It's a long read, but worth it.

[tristanpeel]

yip that orange is amazing. i've always wanted to try go for that jimmy eat world type of distortion. It like it not heavy distortion but more hard distortion with buf fat balls hahah. Yeah look i'll be honest and still learning about mixing and finding out what works and what doesnt. i've got all the right gear but now i just luck the knowledge and the know how.I will look at that thread shot.

[albee1952]

Gotta toss in another 2 cents worth here. As to the phase issue, if you zoom in, you can tell if one wave form is behind or ahead of the other and nudge one track till they line up. Voila, no more phase issue. Next, while I agree that the trusty SM57 is an accepted "standard" for guitar amps, it is not perfect in every situation, anymore than a U87 is the perfect vocal mic for every singer. I get compliments on my guitar tone all the time BUT the 57 will absolutely NOT record it right. For me, I get better results with a lowly MXL2001 LDC, even better with a Shure SM7 and really great with a Cascade DR2 ribbon. A Royer ribbon is my benchmark best but I just can't afford one. If you have a stereo guitar amp setup, the DR2 with a cardioid on top makes a great MS setup as well. I did an impromptu shootout when I got the Cascade and setup a new SM57, MXL2001, SM7 and the DR2 on my Vox AD120VTX(quick and dirty, all in roughly the same position relating to the 12" Celestions-all aimed just outside of the dustcap/cone seam and 1" off the grill). All mics went into 4 channels of a Focusrite ISA428 set on the ISA110 impedance setting and set for similar meter readings. I recorded one pass with the Recto patch and switched to a Boutique Clean halfway thru. On playback, the SM57 was the clear loser but again, YMMV. I spent countless hours in studios being frustrated about not being able to reproduce my tone with all manner of mics and positions and had given up when my friend bought his first Royer. One session with that and my problems were over and it made me realize that, as popular as the old 57 IS, that doesn't make it the best choice for everyone. Good luck in your tone quest and don't be afraid to buck the trend now and then.

[Naagzh]

yip that orange is amazing. i've always wanted to try go for that jimmy eat world type of distortion. It like it not heavy distortion but more hard distortion with buf fat balls hahah. Yeah look i'll be honest and still learning about mixing and finding out what works and what doesnt. i've got all the right gear but now i just luck the knowledge and the know how.I will look at that thread shot.



OK, Jimmy Eat World helps a little. As far as "fat balls", right away I'm thinking double-tracked, Marshall-Gibson. The double-tracking is a sort of "natural" chorus effect, and makes things sound bigger, yet human. For starters, turn your gain down a smidge, track a part twice (play it tightly), and pan the two tracks wide. This alone will likely get you that fatness without being too metal-ish and distorted. Of course, it's necessary to be a consistent guitar player with clean technique in this case.

Is there a Jimmy Eat World song in particular you have in mind?

I'll bet those Royers are nice. I've noticed ALOT of recommendations and endorsements recently.

[tristanpeel]

Yeah that would sound hot. pity i dont have a marshall yet. I have a question though. how would one create a double track sound like you mentioned panning them left and right live? that would sound amazing. it not the same as just taking 2 amps and panning them on the mixer. how could one create that human ch. i am the only guitar player in the band so another dude wouldn work. is there some sort of device? yeah im def going to look into that royer mic. heard of it before. we recording in 2 weeks time so i wanna try get my ducks in a row since i'm the guy doing the tracking hahah

[tristanpeel]

shot thanks i fixed my phase problem with that bit of advice. I guess you right the next step is creating that same sound from the amp into your DAW. tell me that focusrite mic pre you used. on a scale of one to ten how good is it. can you recommend any good ones to use live and in studio

[Naagzh]

Yeah that would sound hot. pity i dont have a marshall yet. I have a question though. how would one create a double track sound like you mentioned panning them left and right live? that would sound amazing. it not the same as just taking 2 amps and panning them on the mixer. how could one create that human ch. i am the only guitar player in the band so another dude wouldn work. is there some sort of device? yeah im def going to look into that royer mic. heard of it before. we recording in 2 weeks time so i wanna try get my ducks in a row since i'm the guy doing the tracking hahah



It's not really feasible to re-create the double-tracked sound with one signal. No matter what, it won't sound the same, because the slight pitch and timing differences between the two takes are what create that "big" feel.

But for starters, copy the one take onto a second audio track. Pan the first track hard right, and the second hard left. Now insert a short delay plug (100% wet) onto the second track, and set it to about 20 msec. Because of the timing difference, the one track and its delayed copy two will sound wider than just the one track.

A chorus pedal (or plug-in, like Waves Doubler) performs a similar task, but also uses slight pitch-shifting and modulation to make one signal sound like a "chorus" of slightly differing signals.

But the two above approaches will sound "synthetic", because the timing and pitch variations are electronic (or digital) and not humanly imperfect.

Perhaps one day someone will create a doubler with a "humanize" slider for this very purpose. It'd be great for vocals, too. You listening, Mr. Massey?

[ondruspat]

On the whole of it I'd have to agree with Naagzh's one mic approach. Though there are times that I still use two mics (or more!!) I usually stick to one and wring the best tone out of it that I can. Even if I do use multiple mics I treat each one as if it is the only mic being used unless it's a distance mic for ambience. I usually use a dynamic for close miking. 57's are cool for what they do but try any mic that you have. I've gotten great tones out of cheap CAD drum mics, also out of a no-name mic I borrowed from my wife's video camera equipment. I pay a lot of attention to mic placement, even slight movements of a mic can drastically change your tone. Learn which parts of the speaker radiate different tones. In general the center coil cover/dust cap generates the high edge definition while the cone has more meat. Also think about the angle of your mic to the speaker, just as you might change the angle of a mic when working with a vocalist.

Besides all that here's a quik starting place for you, this is how I throw up a guitar mic for live settings (where you hardly ever have time to play with mic placement!!! LOL). I'll take a dynamic, place it right almost touching the grill clothe and point it perpendicular to the speaker cone (notice: the cone, not the speaker cabinet) about a half inch from the center dust cap. Even when I am recording I'll use this as a starting place and experiment moving the mic around from there. Every speaker is different and every one will have a different sweet spot, even if they are in the same 4x12 cabinet!!

Of course even with all this that I put into miking I always record a direct line from the guitar for re-amping, Amplitube, etc.

[JoeRocks123]

Have you tried using a direct box?

Using a direct box you plug you guitar into it.
Mic the guitar cab and plug the mic into the direct obx.
then take the direct signal put it into an input for a track, then put the mics cabnet signal and put it into an input for a second track.

After you have done that blen the cabnet track and the direct signal track together to create the guitar tone and apply wanted effects.

[Matt Darcy]

fantasticlly interesting thread.

[albee1952]

A few things to consider on this. first off, when recording with 2 mics, you can try nudging one track so that the 2 waveforms line up. This will eliminate phase issues. Second, while the SM57 is certainly accepted as a "first choice" guitar amp mic, it is by no means the best or only choice. Depending on the tone, a 57 may NOT be the right choice(just as a U87 is not always the right choice for vocals). My 2 cents here, but the SM57 is my 4th choice after an SM-7, MXL 2001 and my new Cascade DR-2(dual ribbon). None of these mics are expensive and all record my guitar amp better than a 57. Experiment with every mic you have available(and try different preamps if you have any).

[Scott Goldberg]

Yes, moving the mic(s) around is always a good idea, even if the mics are totally in phase. You might find a new sweet spot ( ) for your amp. Might seem obvious, but set up one mic at a time. Start with the 57 nice and close to the cabinet, and then add the condenser for more room.

Add-on:
There's times when panning two mics on the same source (recorded at the same time) hard left/right will do it, but more often than not...it just doesn't sound "right". Find a specific place for your guitar in the stereo image, and pan both signals (57 and condenser) there. A specific tone with a distinct placement - that'll very often do the trick.

My 2,- NOK


Listen to Stig. He's REALLY old. I do have one question for you though. Maybe I missed it being SO MUCH OLDER THAN STIG!:D Is this a typical orange 4 speaker cabinet, because you can do a few things. One is that you might want to find the best sounding speaker first, so you know where you want to put that 57 or a Royer R121. The part people are mentioning about using a nice condenser as an ambient the amp is always good. and last. Some people like to put the cab towards the wall. THis leaves you a few more options, but it really depends what sounds good to you. At high volumes, amp cabinets can sound pretty interesting when played loud and turned around like that. YOu can get some pretty crazy recordings that way, especially if you have a Reamp box. Just my 2 Euro cents.