Overhead mic technique - what works for you?

[zv yoda]

Hi folks,
Great to see the drum room finally open. My home set up is a 12 x 12 ft room. I have to track & mix in the same room (no alternative). It has some treatment, but still sounds like a 12x12. Ceiling as about 7-8 ft high.

My question relates to overhead mic positioning... I've tried the usual techniques & would love to hear what works best for folks.
- XY over centre of kit. Does the job, but no sense of space. I find panning the close mics just gives a false sense of space
- Recorderman. Tried this recently. I like the way it projects the crack of the snare & the physical layout of the kit... but I found some phasiness in the cymbals
- Spaced pair (3:1 rule?). I think I would like this best if I could get it to work... but the cymbals sound very harsh (because the mics are lower than with the other methods)

I also close mic each drum. I constantly switch between overheads vs. closed as the main source & can never make up my mind. I’d like mostly room/overheads (and just use the close mics to fill it out) but in reality, the room ambience isn’t great, so I often EQ out the bottom end from the overheads & leave mainly cymbals coming through.

So, what works for you? Any suggestions on how I could fix the cymbals harshness/phasiness?


My kit is a maple Pearl Session Custom (10, 12, 14 & 22) with a 14x5 Master maple snare. I use various cymbals (Sabian AA/HHX & Zildjian A custom/Z). Mic-wise:

AKG D112 & SM57 on the kick
SM57 on snare (top only – never did use the bottom track, so stopped micing it)
Rode NT5 matched pair for overheads.
I have cheap Thomann mics on the toms (for now... Beyer Opus 88s on order!!... and an Octopre LE with ADAT to replace my ADA8000)
Thanks!

[Digitopian]

Hey Yoda, regarding the spaced pair.... there is nothing that says you can't raise the overheads higher. I'm not really sure how you are trying to apply the 3:1 rule in this situation but if you are not having phase issues and you raise both your overheads to the desired height by the same amount then it would seem that you would achieve your goal.

What I do regarding Spaced pair situation, and have seen a number of other engineers do the same is find a middle point in the kit. Some use the center of the snare, and I have heard others using the kick pedal as a reference point and make each OH equidistant from that point. Using this center point as a reference is at least in theory supposed to avoid phasing issues.

I have never heard of recorderman technique, so if you could share how that method works it would be great. I am always looking to try new mic'ing techniques.

Also, there is a technique known as the Glyn Johns method which many people have used to great success and if you google it you'll find a ton of info about it.

The only other thing I can think of is that if there is any possible way to change the dimensions of the room by putting up some sort of make shift wall perhaps from the wall to and through one of the corners of the room so that it is not a perfectly square 12' by 12' room may help. Any sort of offset at all would probably help as a perfectly square room is far from ideal because everything is perfectly parallel. Anyway just some thoughts....

Edit: Oh last thing, It has been my experience that even in really nice large well treated tracking rooms with high ceilings I just about always end up using a HPF to roll out some of the lows out of the OH's because of some of the strangeness that occurs regarding hearing the delayed kick drum etc, in the overheads.

Hopefully more duc'ers will chime in!

[Trazan]

Well, it depends on style, room etc etc, but I usually use something similar to ORTF over the drummers head.

[albee1952]

Here's another suggestion; First, set the kit up so its NOT in the center of the room(a square room will have major issues in the center). Now, assuming the ceiling is drywall(ie NOT acoustically treated), put your overheads on tall booms, spread them apart to observe the 3:1 rule(mics 3 times farther apart as they are from the cymbals) and angle the mics up(45-60 degrees) toward the ceiling. Now raise them as close to the ceiling as possible without actually touching. What this creates is the same effect as a boundary mic and it will eliminate a lot of phasing issues with sound that enters the mics AFTER bouncing off the ceiling(think about what happens ABOVE your overhead mics in a small room).

[TOM@METRO]

Criss crossing a pair of 451s centered about 10-12 feet from the floor at the center of the kit can add some interesting imaging.

[albee1952]

Criss crossing a pair of 451s centered about 10-12 feet from the floor at the center of the kit can add some interesting imaging.
Yes indeed, but hard to do with an 8' ceiling:eek:

[EGS]

What works for me? To avoid phase issues, I use a single OH mic. I position it over the right knee of the drummer (left for a lefty drummer). I hang it fairly low, maybe 2 feet higher than the drummer's head. Hi-pass at 200hz. This only works if the cymbals are naturally balanced. That is, if one cymbal is louder than the others, you'll have problems. It's powerful and never phasey. Drummers love the sound !!!

[Craig F]

I like an SM-2 over the kit

[TOM@METRO]

Yes indeed, but hard to do with an 8' ceiling:eek:That's what saws are for.:D:D

[TOM@METRO]

Yes indeed, but hard to do with an 8' ceiling:eek:

That’s what saws are for.:D:D

With low ceilings try loosely tacking a few garbage bags or a plastic tarp to the ceiling. This can disturb HF reflections just a little and improve phase anomalies.

[zv yoda]

Thanks for all the replies so far...

Here's another suggestion; First, set the kit up so its NOT in the center of the room(a square room will have major issues in the center). Now, assuming the ceiling is drywall(ie NOT acoustically treated), put your overheads on tall booms, spread them apart to observe the 3:1 rule(mics 3 times farther apart as they are from the cymbals) and angle the mics up(45-60 degrees) toward the ceiling. Now raise them as close to the ceiling as possible without actually touching. What this creates is the same effect as a boundary mic and it will eliminate a lot of phasing issues with sound that enters the mics AFTER bouncing off the ceiling(think about what happens ABOVE your overhead mics in a small room).

The kit is off-centre already (as much as it can be in such a small room). The ceiling is semi-treated... I have some Rockwool slabs (wrapped in fabric) acting as bass traps around the edges. I also have a "cloud" directly above the kit.. this is a duvet which has been tacked to the ceiling in a few places directly above the kit. The rest of the ceiling is pine panelling (so as not to have it too dead).

Re the 3:1 rule... I'm trying to do that, but the kit is only about 5' (60 inches) wide, so if I keep to the 3:1 rule the mics can be no more than 20 inches or so above the cymbals (that's if I'm doing this properly?)

Criss crossing a pair of 451s centered about 10-12 feet from the floor at the center of the kit can add some interesting imaging.
If only I had 12' ceilings...

Yes indeed, but hard to do with an 8' ceiling:eek:

:D
What works for me? To avoid phase issues, I use a single OH mic. I position it over the right knee of the drummer (left for a lefty drummer). I hang it fairly low, maybe 2 feet higher than the drummer's head. Hi-pass at 200hz. This only works if the cymbals are naturally balanced. That is, if one cymbal is louder than the others, you'll have problems. It's powerful and never phasey. Drummers love the sound !!!

That's interesting... I've never considered using just one overhead. I'll give that a try. The cymbals are fairly evenly matched & they're pretty evenly spaced around the kit too.

That's what saws are for.:D:D
My studio is in my garage. I live in Ireland. If I cut a hole in the ceiling, I'll need to put an umbrella over the kit to keep the rain off!

That’s what saws are for.:D:D

With low ceilings try loosely tacking a few garbage bags or a plastic tarp to the ceiling. This can disturb HF reflections just a little and improve phase anomalies.

I have Rockwool/duvet on the ceiling, so I think the issue is less about reflections & more about the phase issues due to time delays reaching the mics.

[getz76]

My studio is in my garage. I live in Ireland. If I cut a hole in the ceiling, I'll need to put an umbrella over the kit to keep the rain off!

Just invite me over. Both times I have been to Ireland to visit the wife's family, it has been sunny and warm. I don't know what your lot is complaining about. :D

[TOM@METRO]

Still try what suggested, keeping both cardioid overheads together but looking at the kit in an "x" formation. This has been successful in reducing overhead mic phasing in more than one studio I work in.

[Jenk2k]

e602 inside kick
AKG perception front of kick
audix i5 on snare (or SM57)
e604's on 4 toms
2 x Groove Tubes GT55 large diaphragm condenser overheads set at boundary width of kit about 18 inches from cymbals.
Rode NT5 matched pair on hi hats and ride cymbal.


large 50x50 room, 2nd floor, hardwood floors, one baffle in between the front of the kit and wall. ceiling about 15 ft w/ acoustical tiles.

i find that the large diaphragms give a far more realistic and usable total kit picture than the nt5's.

[zv yoda]

Still try what suggested, keeping both cardioid overheads together but looking at the kit in an "x" formation. This has been successful in reducing overhead mic phasing in more than one studio I work in.

Will def be trying all of the above in the next couple of weeks

e602 inside kick
AKG perception front of kick
audix i5 on snare (or SM57)
e604's on 4 toms
2 x Groove Tubes GT55 large diaphragm condenser overheads set at boundary width of kit about 18 inches from cymbals.
Rode NT5 matched pair on hi hats and ride cymbal.


large 50x50 room, 2nd floor, hardwood floors, one baffle in between the front of the kit and wall. ceiling about 15 ft w/ acoustical tiles.

i find that the large diaphragms give a far more realistic and usable total kit picture than the nt5's.

If I had a 50x50 room with a 15' ceiling then I wouldn't be using a 12x12x8 room!

... having said that, I've just been on your MySpace.... although that's not normally my cup of tea, I have to say you've got a very tight sound going on there... very commercial too... good stuff

[Jenk2k]

ive got some other projects coming out in the next month or so that blow the engineering and producing i did on that stuff away. I love the gratification i get from not only playing music but engineering it. the constant learning really tickles my pickle.

[1ace1]

Try aiming one mic above the snare about 4-7 feet depending on how much room you want and the other mic should go at 90 degrees to this on the side by the ride and floor tom pointing at the side of the snare but the same distance away as the overhead mic. SO one mic is pointing down (over the snare) and the other is pointing sidways at the snare by the floor tom. Not sure why, but in a good room this sounds great. Also a good M+S pair can work well (414 Side and GT33 Mid) as can the good old NT4 cross coincident stereo mic.
With the first technique I mentioned you can try to invert the phase of the lower mic but normally if possitioned correctly this is not needed.

A:)

[Voltron22]

Here are some secrets of I have found

Number one SHOTGUN MIC YOUR SNARE WOWOW

[Voltron22]

If you really wanna get crazy you can try using some stereo micing technics like MS or NOS but for me I usually stick with the old tried and true A B overheads. As for the how high i hate to say it but depends on what your playing. Its fine to keep the overheads low when recording some sidestic samba beat with a bell less ride. But for Blast beats or Classic Rock raise them up.
The MOST important thing to do is look at your drumset and divide it equally. and mic it accordingly. Use a spare XLR cable and sit at the throne of the kit find the middle of the drumset and use the cable to check that each mic is an equal distantce from the other

[1ace1]

Number one SHOTGUN MIC YOUR SNARE WOWOW

This is a classic, but not so much an overhead technique.

It works well if you have the shotgun high above the snare, gate it on mixdown and have the bottom snare key'ed into the side chain, meaning the shotgun track only opens when triggered by the bottom snare. Play with the attack and release to get it more interesting.

A:)

[TOM@METRO]

Here are some secrets of I have found

Number one SHOTGUN MIC YOUR SNARE WOWOW
Just don't put hi value mics in the path the sticks.:eek:

[D3lta]

I've been using the Mojave MA-100's, and I LOVE LOVE LOVE the sound on OH's. It even helps bring out the crack of the snare, and the quick beginning thump of the kick. I then use an Audix i5 on snare, and an Audix D6 on kick, and then add in, or take out toms or whatever suits the kit.

I tend to prefer a sparce mic situation, as it has a livelier feel to me.

[O.G. Killa]

A friend of mine and I have some instruction videos coming out on Hudson Music's website that touch on this topic. We cover Rock, Funk and Jazz. Slightly different mic'ing technique for each. While the videos are geared towards drummers (not sound engineerS) and the "engineering" aspect is watered down, you'll at least be able to see and hear what's going on. The series is called "Seeing Sounds". it should be up in a few weeks if not sooner...

But... to go in depth a little... First thing I'd like to address is people mentioning the 3:1 rule in regards to Overheads... this is a little pet peeve of mine. The 3:1 rule absolutely, in no way-shape-form, applies to ANY stereo mic'ing techniques. doesn't matter if it's spaced pair, XY, MS, ORTF, whatever. If it's a stereo mic'ing technique, 3:1 has no bearing. The 3:1 rule ONLY applies when mic'ing two DIFFERENT instruments/sound sources and aren't meant to be used in stereo. An example of where the 3:1 rule would apply on a drumset is the stereo overheads in conjunction with the close mics. If the tom mic or snare mic isn't at least 3 times closer than the overhead is to the drum, you'll get phase interference. Likewise, Tom mic 1 has to be 3 times closer to tom 1 than to tom 2 and tom mic 2. But from left to right in a stereo mic'ing technique, the 3:1 rule doesn't apply.

Why? Sound propagates as an ever-expanding sphere unless acted upon by an outside force. Because of that, so long as the mics are the same distance from the source, and they are panned left and right, you will get absolutely no problems. The varying distance of one part of the instrument to the two mics creates stereo image, not phase interference. Secondly, there is absolutely no way to get two mics 3 times the distance apart as they are from a single audio source. Try it, it's physically impossible. setup a snare drum in the room by itself. Measure 3 pieces of string, two at 1 yard/meter and one at 3 yards/meters in length. There is absolutely no way to get both mics to be exactly 1 yard/meter away from the snare while also being 3 yards/meters away from each other!!! Even if they are on either side of the drum, they are still only 2 yards/meters away from each other!!!!

Anyway... The point of a stereo mic'ing technique is to get those timing differences between the two mics. Pick one part of the drumset you want to be "in the center" and make sure both mics are equidistant to that and to each other. So for example, if you want the snare drum to be centered between the speakers and everything else to pan in relation to the snare. Make sure the overheads are, let's say, 5 feet from the snare and also 5 feet from one another. Also known as an equilateral triangle...

OK... so back to setting up the overheads in a small room. If the room is 12' x12' x 8', don't even bother trying to get a good overall "drum" sound in the overheads since the room itself is never going to yield a good drum sound on it's own. Instead, focus on using the overheads as cymbal spot mics.

I've found a combination spaced pair meets ORTF usually works best since you can't put the mics up that high. With ORTF the mics are supposed to be cardioid, be 17cm apart and be at a 110 degree angle to each other... OK... but you don't have to be exact with the distance or the angle for an overhead mic'ing technique... What I've found works pretty well is to spread them out a little more (this varies depending on the cymbal setup) and change the angle based on how much snare bleed you are getting. You are always going to get snare bleed, but the more horizontal facing the mics are, the more cymbal to snare drum ratio you get. And at that point they don't have to be perfectly symmetrical either, since you are no longer trying to use them as a "stereo drumset" mic and are using them more as a "cymbal spot mic". So the mic over the drummers left should be positioned to try and pick up all the cymbals and high hat on the left while minimizing snare drum bleed. Same goes for the mic over the drummer's right. Pay close attention to the ride cymbal. Usually the ride cymbal gets lost in the wash of drums and crashes, so don't be afraid to move the right overhead a little closer to the ride or put a third mic on the ride (now here the 3:1 rule applies since the spot mic and the right side overhead are not being used together as a stereo pair but will most likely be panned to the same side) Turn the ride mic way down and just bring it up a little bit for reinforcement if you need it.

Again, check the levels of the snare and kick in the overheads. Even though you aren't using them as a stereo mic'ing technique anymore, if the snare is 10dB louder in one mic than the other it will pull the whole stereo image of the kit to that side. Move the mic around to try and minimize the bleed.

One other thing with overheads, listen to make sure you can't hear the cymbals "sway". If the mics are too low, as the cymbal rocks up and down it will create a slight doppler/flanging effect in the mic (even when solo'd). If you hear that you need to move the mic.

Other than that, look into some serious bass trapping for the corners to help tame standing waves, and then look at some diffusors to help keep the drums "singing" without any flutter/slap echo. And also put some High frequency absorption above the drumset to keep the cymbals from "splattering" on the ceiling right above the kit.

Another thing to play around with is the Glyn John's iscoceles triangle technique. You put one mic overhead the other over the floor tom. Both mics have to be the same distance from the snare, but don't have to be that same distance to each other. pan the overhead left and the tom side mic right. Sometimes panning to "11 and 3" works better than hard left/right with this technique. Ideally the mic's should be the same make/model and there is supposed to be a third mic out front. But if you are close mic'ing the drums, you can forgo the the third mic and try just the overhead/tom side pair and see how it sounds for you. I have a couple pics of this setup on my myspace page if you want to see what it looks like.

[albee1952]

Thanks to OG for spelling that all out. Its a compelling argument. One thing you can also try with a low ceiling is, place the mics out in front of the kit at head height, looking at the kit. Stranger stuff has worked.

[1ace1]

Anyway... The point of a stereo mic'ing technique is to get those timing differences between the two mics.

When using spaced or near spacing this is true, but with coincidence micing it is the frequency/amplitude domain rather than the time domain that give the stereo imaging.

I love M+S mic'ing as a stereo micing technique. One of the beauties with this is that you can widen or narrow the image at mixdown.

I must confess though that 'lovely spaced omnis' is a also a favourite stereo mic technique (however you won't make a bad room sound ok with this, it will be just as it is!)

[KingFish]

Thanks to OG for spelling that all out. Its a compelling argument. One thing you can also try with a low ceiling is, place the mics out in front of the kit at head height, looking at the kit. Stranger stuff has worked.

Even if I'm cutting at Oceanway, and NOT restricted by the ceiling, I like to used a spaced Pair, as wide to the edge of the cymbals (side of the kit I can go), as LOW and close to the cymbals as possible, from the inside of the kit, pointing out, across the cymbals.

The Higher I go, the less stereo field spread I get, the Shells just kind of morph in with the Brass, in a muddy, more mono representation of the Kit.

Too many "High X Y's" have had me trying to pull the snare DOWN in the mix, and trying to get more Brass, to find all the snare coming through the OH's

I set up a few other mics, for more "Full Kit Representation" -

I like to set up a c24 5ft in front of the kit, around "Sitting drummer Ear level" - But as for my Overheads, I've morphed to this over the last 20 years as a tracking engineer, after mixing a hundred records or so.. many of which "I" tracked, and would be swearing at myself in the mix chair.

I usually have a Close C24 - a stereo wide mid room pair of U87's, a Far room mono Ribbon mic of some sort and a Ride Mic - So i like to keep my OH's as low, close to the brass as possible, and isolated directionally from the shells, especially if I have a hard hitter (Which is most of the time)